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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 46
Author
Freak occurrence? Bolt plate coming off

ajfclark
16-Jun-2016
9:33:38 AM
From http://www.fishproducts.com/catalog/hooks.html :



This item is kinda silly when you actually see it, but it could save you tons of grief on a beat-up rivet ladder. Originally designed for the Dawn Wall on El Cap, this rivet hanger enables you to use rivets that only have a few thousands-of-an-inch clearance from the wall. Even a broken Rawl Stud is no match for a Doubloon- -just hang the Doubloon on the last exposed thread and apply cautious weight-Bingo! Your'e on that sucker and barely even shaking. Here's the kicker-these Doubloons are strong to boot (1000+ lbs) and make those #1 wireds over rivets look foolish.

And from Moses http://www.mosesclimbing.com/?page_id=13 :



I get the impression from http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Rivet-Hanger-Reviews/Moses-Rivet-Hangers that keyhole hangers aren't standard for this though. Sounds like wire loops are what people usually use?


phillipivan
16-Jun-2016
9:44:16 AM
A friend I climbed with, HuwJ, had some of those Moses hangers with the longer keyhole. They worked pretty good on Ozi. Might be a bit of a faff on a 'sporting' climb though. I guess the longer hole makes them a bit less likely to fall off when clipped with a wire gate. May be too small for some bolts though.
gfdonc
16-Jun-2016
10:03:42 AM
On 15/06/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>I think they're ok in a few places. The ones under the hand rail on the
>horn for instance.

You're missing the point. They're not OK. They don't meet the relevant safety standards and can come undone accidentally, as your video shows. We should 'uninvent' them.

We should get rid of them all, might take another couple of decades though.

Macciza
16-Jun-2016
10:26:07 AM
Um, if meeting safety standards and not accidentally coming undone are prerequisites for being 'OK' then pretty much every ring and Ubolt is in the same boat. Good luck getting rid of all of them ...

Wow, so a plate can fall off if you use a thin biner, but not if you use a suitable one ... Well a wheel will fall off your car if you use a the wrong size nuts... Same deal, use the right stuff for the job ...
Save your skinny biners for falling off of rings and Ubolts, which they can quite easily ...

If you really want to make sure it's not coming off just use a screw gate ....
gfdonc
16-Jun-2016
10:40:08 AM
Rings and U's meet EN959 if placed properly. Carrots don't. 'Nuff said.

The good Dr
16-Jun-2016
3:05:37 PM

>Wow, so a plate can fall off if you use a thin biner, but not if you use
>a suitable one ...

And the list is?

>If you really want to make sure it's not coming off just use a screw gate
>....

Some screw gates have the same issue of a narrow nose or spine. Have tested it myself with some screw gates on carrots. They are often just the same biner but with a locking mechanism. It is not the location of the barrel where the issue occurs. The belief that this as a solution means that you may be creating a risk through misconceived infromation and then disseminating this incorrect information to other climbers.
One Day Hero
16-Jun-2016
5:23:14 PM
On 16/06/2016 gfdonc wrote:
>Rings and U's meet EN959 if placed properly. Carrots don't. 'Nuff said.
>
If I even suspect that anyone is trying to bring Australian cliffs up to some arbitrary european standard, I'll go on a mission to chop all their fuchin' bolts everywhere!
argos44
16-Jun-2016
6:29:30 PM
Im guessing your using a home made harness, weave your own rope and forge your own carabiners, because that stuff is all made to a standard.

E. Wells
16-Jun-2016
7:48:37 PM
The carrot in that video is an undersize p.o.s with a tiny ground down head. I like properly notched and roughed stainless hex head bolts glued in with good epoxy and have never had issues with my gear coming off because as macca said you use the right gear. That includes adequately extending draws. The only ones i have issues with are the pissy little crap things like what is on the rebolts of Dr Doolittle at Cosmic and Showpiece at Mitchells Ridge ,

IdratherbeclimbingM9
16-Jun-2016
8:42:02 PM
On 16/06/2016 TimP wrote:
>I haven't climbed in America but have read about "rivets" - soundless like
>a carrot, do they use bolt plates?

Rivets are usually 1/4" and have button heads.
In fact you can see one in the doubloon photo that ajf posted...
Warren Harding made them famous in his first use of them when he completed The Nose route on El Capitan, by drilling his way up the final headwall overnight on its first ascent.
Rivets are usually short (approx 1"), and were an effective body-weight easily drilled (compared to proper bolts), aid ascent method on what was then considered unclimbable terrain.
Even then Warren Harding skimped by drilling the holes minimally shallow on most of the placements in order to speed up the ascent to top-out!
There were no such things as hangers (or doubloons), back then so they were cinched with hero loops of bootlace diameter!

Back on thread topic...
Re hangers coming off carrots; although rare in the 'old days' it still happened, mostly due to poor quality control as applied to hand made gear by individuals.

The fact it's more prevalent these days is because of incompatible technology application.

It isn't an issue that worries me as I've always regarded carrots as requiring a certain amount of respect but no more so than the same caution applied to trad gear.
Climbing has inherent dangers. This is just one of them; especially if blind faith without logical analysis (read common sense), is being applied to the game we play whilst doing it.
;-)

ajfclark
16-Jun-2016
8:53:04 PM
On 16/06/2016 E. Wells wrote:
>The carrot in that video is an undersize p.o.s with a tiny ground down head.

You haven't actually read the whole thread, have you?

As I said under the video:

> Yes, the heads are probably not the right size, etc, but it was just something quick made with what i had on hand to demonstrate that different biners interacted differently.

E. Wells
16-Jun-2016
9:14:39 PM
I did read that. Maybe as effectively as you read the word 'ring'. 😉
patto
16-Jun-2016
9:38:41 PM
On 16/06/2016 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>It isn't an issue that worries me as I've always regarded carrots as requiring
>a certain amount of respect but no more so than the same caution applied
>to trad gear.
>Climbing has inherent dangers. This is just one of them; especially if
>blind faith without logical analysis (read common sense), is being applied
>to the game we play whilst doing it.
>;-)

Pretty much my attitude. I approach carrots with the same degree of caution as I approach the rest of trad climbing. I certainly don't view carrots on the same level as a well bolted sport climb, but most carrots I encounter are certainly not of the nicely spaced sport climbing variety.

Should the continue to be used? I'll leave that debate to those who are actually bolting things.

ajfclark
17-Jun-2016
8:29:45 AM
On 16/06/2016 E. Wells wrote:
>I did read that. Maybe as effectively as you read the word 'ring'. 😉

I didn't have a picture of a ring on hand at the time, but I found one James Titt made:



The action in pictures I posted applies to rings as well as fixed hangers, hence I asked "Like so?" to try and get clarification of whether it was the same action that you saw unclip the ring at shipley or something else. I assumed since you didn't answer my question that it was the same action.

Was it some other mechanism at work? Maybe something like this:


gfdonc
17-Jun-2016
9:33:29 AM
At Neil's suggestion (some older post of his I think) I've been using a couple these lately just for that reason:
http://www.edelrid.de/en/slider/
I really like them. A little heavier and slightly more fiddly of course, but they work better than I expected. And the sense of security is great.


Zarb
17-Jun-2016
10:10:45 AM
Well it seems like a common enough occurrence for me to move my Photons over to the spare crab pile, and use something fatter instead. I think I have some thick Madrock snap gates somewhere... I feel like it would be acceptable risk in other circumstances, but I find myself climbing quite a lot of fully carroted routes lately (re: easy old stuff).


sbm
17-Jun-2016
10:53:49 AM
It's all well and good to say "Use the right equipment needed to protect the climb!" but it's 2016 and it's NOT POSSIBLE TO BUY CARABINERS SUITABLE FOR BOLT PLATES ANY MORE.

I asked on here a couple of years ago if I should use a pile of old 70's biners from my uncle's garage, or look for new "fat" biners for carrot-protected climbs, and the conclusion was "Oh the old 70's biners will be much better". Now that's just f$%cked up!

So if you're mikl, Macca, or Damo and have piles of old biners sitting around because you've been in the game a while, sure pick out the biners that work well, but what do I tell the kids asking what quickdraws to buy?

And a lot of them really are interested in trad, and jam, and get their feet above the gear - plenty of people in the younger generation interested in climbing beyond sport clip-ups - but it's increasingly difficult for them to get the hands on the gear needed to use carrots properly as protection.

Name a quickdraw or biner. Name one a new climber can buy that works well with carrots. Not a troll: what should we be buying? Maybe some carrot advocates should be looking for a drop forge and getting into the gear business?
mikllaw
17-Jun-2016
11:23:46 AM
1) have a fat screwgate or 2
2) don't use wire gates
3) if you have small biners, add a second biner



Also, education. It is most likely if the bolt sticks out more than 5 mm, and if the head is small.

Macciza
17-Jun-2016
11:26:21 AM
On 16/06/2016 gfdonc wrote:
>Rings and U's meet EN959 if placed properly. Carrots don't. 'Nuff said.
>
Umm, actually No, they don't necessarily...
Unless actually certified on the product, or maybe individually tested, you can't simply claim compliance. certainly not for some home made ring (including chinese bulk buys) or hardware bought Ubolt...
There are certainly certified rings, and possibly U's, and there are definitely certified fixed-hangers. EN959 extracts that I have seen have a fixed hanger in the diagram. I suppose there may also be certified removable hangers, logically there should be able to be...

So now to carrots, the issue was a removable hanger on a hanger less bolt. aka a Carrot even when its a Gimby (Glued In Machine Bolt, Yeah!) which is very common these days and often still mistaken called carrots, Anyway Gimby can certainly be certified and Carrots could be individually tested for conformity.

Finally EN959 does not in any way guarantee that your carabiner is not going to detach from the attachment point but rather that the attachment point shouldn't pull out of rock that is far harder then Blueies sandstone . . . even when placed properly . . .


ajfclark
17-Jun-2016
11:31:41 AM
On 17/06/2016 Macciza wrote:
> I suppose there may also be certified removable hangers,logically there should be able to be...

Kong makes a products that are for use with the removable hangers I linked earlier: http://www.kong.it/en/2-products/items/f17-anchorage/p129-fix-soleymieux

The lower two in the picture looks pretty similar to a GIMB:



GIven they are in Italy, I assume they comply with the relevant EU standard.

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 46
There are 46 messages in this topic.

 

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