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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 33
Author
Clipping in with a daisy chain

ajfclark
8-Sep-2010
10:21:04 AM
I wonder if something happened to spark this post:

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-daisy-chain-dangers-en-glbl-en-us

voodoo
8-Sep-2010
10:36:12 AM
It must be noted that his concerns about clipping in with a static lifeline and the hazards of shockload that come of this also apply to PAS, cowtails and other sling-based approaches. This isn't just a daisy issue.

MonkeyBoy
8-Sep-2010
10:56:04 AM
So in the article you just linked to the quote says in one bit

"Daisy chains and runners don’t stretch much, which means they don’t absorb much energy. This increases the load on the anchor, and you. Worse-case scenario under a severe-impact load, a daisy can snap. Best-case scenario under a severe-impact load, you’ll snap your back."

What exisists out there as a short, hopefully variable, personal anchor that can be used int the way many people use daisy chains but does have a stretch / energy absorbtion factor ?

I may be missing something really obvious here

ajfclark
8-Sep-2010
11:12:37 AM
A cowtail of dynamic rope?
Winston Smith
8-Sep-2010
11:15:55 AM
Like the Petzl Jane or the Sterling Lanyard

http://www.bogong.com.au/html/connectors__lanyards__fall_arr.html

EJ
8-Sep-2010
11:19:33 AM
This suggestion might defeat the simplicity of clipping in with a daisy, but you could put a "screamer" or equivalent in the system to limit the shock load to the system. Every dynamic cowstail like system I've seen usually involves an old piece of dynamic that is likely to have very limited stretch.

Another question: has anyone tested at what load the bar-tacking on the daisy chain fails? I know there many posts dealing with double clipping daisy chains, but if you clip a single loop on the daisy and the bar-tacking fails at ??Kn then this would also limit the potential shock load ... unless you clipped the very last loop on the daisy where there is not bar-tacking to rip.
widewetandslippery
8-Sep-2010
11:19:44 AM
My understanding is there have been a few accidents where people have clipped into only the unrated bartacked loops un they have failed. I think the fish website has similar warnings. BD is sensibly arse covering.

I have taken factor 1 falls onto dynamic and static 600mm lanyards and they both aren't nice.

cruze
8-Sep-2010
11:20:05 AM
clove hitch your end of the rope to the anchor, and back up the clove hitch with an 8 on a bight.

ajfclark
8-Sep-2010
11:34:13 AM
On 8/09/2010 EJ wrote:
>Another question: has anyone tested at what load the bar-tacking on the daisy chain fails?

The article states that the bar tacking fails somewhere around 500lbs ~= 2.2kN. That might sounds like quite a lot but in a static system it doesn't take much of a fall to generate that much load. This thread is all about static slings loaded with factor 1 falls (120cm on a 120cm sling) causing huge loads (15kN+).

EJ
8-Sep-2010
11:43:53 AM
On 8/09/2010 ajfclark wrote:

>The article states that the bar tacking fails somewhere around 500lbs
>~= 2.2kN. That might sounds like quite a lot but in a static system it
>doesn't take much of a fall to generate that much load.

So lets say you clip into a loop approximately halfway along the daisy chain, then into a load limter (e.g. screamer which activate at ~4Kn), if you shock load the system and bar tacks fail at ~2.2 Kn which is below the load limiter activation. Therefore, so long as the full force of the shock load is absorbed by the bar tacks failing then the anchors and you never experience >2.2kn. If however the bar tacks fail all the way through to the final loop and the full force hasn't been absorbed, this is when the load limiter may kick in and limit the resulting load to a maximum of 4kn.

If there is no load limiter would it still be considered a "shock"load to the system if all the bar tacks failed?

ajfclark
8-Sep-2010
11:58:16 AM
On 8/09/2010 widewetandslippery wrote:
>I have taken factor 1 falls onto dynamic and static 600mm lanyards and they both aren't nice.

Watching Sharma forgetting to unclip from a bolt before moving off (~28 minutes into King Lines) was the closest I ever want to be to something like that.
mikllaw
8-Sep-2010
12:11:43 PM
1) don't use daisy chains unless you're aid climbing - I see no point in carrying extra gear, particularly when they are less safe than most alternatives.

2) (testing require here...) - it's well known that most static rope and nylon tape slings and spectra type slings all have pretty low stretch. However in a short fall situation (< 1.5m) the compliance of these systems is dominated by the slip ( call it what you will - cushioning, compliance, spring, absorbtion) of any knot tightening and slump of your carcass in a harness. I suspect they are all bad unless you're using an 8mm dynamic cord loop, maybe with a new (not bounce tightened) knot.
widewetandslippery
8-Sep-2010
12:16:45 PM
2nding what mikl said. Even with a dynamic rope cowstail I reckon you are going to get more shock absorbsion from knots tightening than stretch in the rope.

MonkeyBoy
8-Sep-2010
1:22:51 PM
On 8/09/2010 davidn wrote:
>Basic rule:

>Never clip in with anything static if you expect to climb above the anchor.

OK so is a staic safety, say a nylon sling girth hitched to a locking biner ok when you top out - Say you top out safefty initally to one ring on a set of doubles while you set up a belay to top belay your second ?






Eduardo Slabofvic
8-Sep-2010
2:04:04 PM
Why the smeg would you clip in hard to an anchor with any thing then start climbing again?

Clipping into an anchor with a daisy chain larks footed to your harness is fine, as long as you do it correctly. You can even get daisy chain like things where each loop is individually rated, so go for it.

It's a bit like using an atomic bomb. Use it correctly and you wont come to any harm. Use it incorrectly and you may get hurt.
costa
8-Sep-2010
3:29:39 PM
And some krabs ofcourse
Fish Boy
8-Sep-2010
3:49:55 PM
Use whatever you want, just be aware of the limitations.

I only tie in with a daisy when I'm aiding because that's the only time I carry one. My rope is the first tie in then I adjust my position with a daisy. This occurs on hanging belays normally, so there is no risk of getting above the daisy, and the last thing to be unclipped when I begin the lead again.

dave h.
8-Sep-2010
4:13:04 PM
The Sterling Chain Reactor (pretty much their answer to the PAS) has some dynamic properties, and is meant to be able to absorb 3 falls of factor 2.

http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/Chain/_/Chain_Reactors
PDRM
8-Sep-2010
4:34:41 PM
On 8/09/2010 dave h. wrote:
>The Sterling Chain Reactor (pretty much their answer to the PAS) has some
>dynamic properties, and is meant to be able to absorb 3 falls of factor
>2.
>
>http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/Chain/_/Chain_Reactors

Metolius make one similar to this too. A series of linked small sewn slings instead of one large sling with low(er) rated bar tacks. http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas_personal_anchor_system.html

P
damon
8-Sep-2010
4:44:45 PM
"Daisy chains and runners don’t stretch much, which means they don’t absorb much energy. This increases the load on the anchor, and you. Worse-case scenario under a severe-impact load, a daisy can snap. Best-case scenario under a severe-impact load, you’ll snap your back."

My daisy chain is like 90cm long, girth hitched onto harness and karab on the other end to the anchor how exactly could a sever-impact load be generated? It would be more of a slump falling 90cm wouldnt it? Am i missing something?

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There are 33 messages in this topic.

 

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