Hi folks, I've been Top rope self belaying for a little while now and wanted opinions on back up options. I'm mainly in the you yangs so short climbs after work etc so my setup at the moment is as follows:
- Set the anchors, master point/padding etc.
- Tie two fig 8's in my 10.2 mm dydnamic line with isolation between them roughly mid point of rope (usually leave one end longer for knots if using them)
- Drop the mainline line down the climb.
- The backup line I tie alpine butterflys in every arm span or so then drop that down.
- ABCDE check and rap down main line
- weight the main line with rope coils/bag/shoes etc
- Set up my petzl mini traxion on the main line using gridlock biner and chest harness to keep it orientated correctly upward
- Using twin cowstails (Purcell prussiks 7mm cord) with twistlocks on the end connected to a mallion rigged the same as my belay loop I begin climbing. I use the mallion as it declutters my belay loop.
- As I reach a knot I clip it with the cowtail and when the next one is reached clip that and unclip the previous.
- Climb and repeat.....
I find this setup works well with one rope as long as the climb is less than 25m long (easy in the youies!) The knots are a little time consuming and I'd like to use my gri gri 2 on the backup line and wondered what you guys think of that as an option. Obviously I'd be pulling slack through it every few moves and not expecting it to feed smoothly like the trax. This way I'd just reach the top, flick the cam off the trax and rap straight down the backup line still on the gri gri and get more laps in.
I know people use microscenders and twin traxions but I'm specifically interested in the gri gri option as it means I don't need to buy any more gear and allows the quick rap.
I'm doing this mainly to practice aiding without pissing a belayer off! I also really like just getting lots of laps in quickly after work.
I do exactly as you say with traxion and gri gri back up. Pro- easy to go up and down to retry sequence and rap back down from top as you say. Con - doesn't slide as smooth as traxion or microcender.
I have traxion on my belay loop and gri gri extended with doubled over 60cm sling - keeps the devices apart and a bit of slack lets the gri gri slide better.
I have the gri gri rope weighted or tied down as per traxion (needs a bit more weight, sometimes I use a coles bag with a few rocks chucked in it) and usually slides fine - certainly not as smooth as the traxion - but key is to have gri gri with enough slack that it doesn't grab the rope.
Ascending...
and falling.
I used to clip into tied back up loops as you say but that was a pain. This way no need to pull rope or anything, just climb. Anyway, this is whats worked well for me, I enjoy it..feel free to critique.
I used to run a modded Grigri 1 as Phil said and then moved to a modded GG 2 as my main device with a WC ropeman2/microcender as the backup. I also use a steel D mallion (rated to ~35kn) as my attachment point so there's no real chance of cross loading anything. This set up worked really well on vertical climbs once I'd figured out the perfect weight to hang off the end of the rope; (like Harold); too much weight and the GG would lock up all the time, too little and it wouldn't feed very well.... On slabby climbs it was a little bit of a pain as I had trouble getting the rope to feed well through the GriGri though funnily enough self belay on a slab almost felt like leading; climb to a good stance, pull rope through the GG, move up some more... Anyway I then moved to a microtraxion on the main line backed up by a microcender or the ropeman2.
For really long climbs, >30m I just run a single rope and have both devices attached. If I can't set up an anchor below the lip of the climb I pad the daylights out of the area where the rope runs over the lip and rebelay anywhere on the climb there might be sharp edges...
Usually the top piece I have on a short sling (single sling doubled over) to keep it out of the way of the microtraxion. I used to think it horrible to have to attach a device to rap with once I'd finished the climb and so used the GriGri, though now I find the ease of using the microtraxion/microcender/ropeman so much better that I don't mind getting to the top and attaching an ATC or GG to rap with.
If you're keen to use the GG, I reckon use it as the main device with the minitraxion as the backup. I reckon having it on your belay loop makes it easier to handle, though comes with it's own risks like catching the handle on your harness or another bit of gear... Even then, if the GG gets caught on something you've still got the minitrax as a back up.
However, re your system.
You have overkill redundancy so you will be safe even with the faff involved of pulling rope to assist rope-feed.
Your setup favours straight up and down routes so may have limitations when it comes to other types of routes...
>I'm doing this mainly to practice aiding without pissing a belayer off!
A running clove hitch is fine for that, as aid is usually slow work.
Here is a cheap and effective setup using gear to hand.
Note the second clove hitch backup... In my opinion this isn't particularly necessary, particularly when it is on the same rope, however I can think of situations where it provides peace of mind, and in your setup could be on the second rope, and need not be adjusted as often as the spacing of your presently used alpine butterfly knot-clipping, as it only* needs to keep you off the deck after rope stretch is considered.
(*It is backup after all...)
As an aside, the jiggery pokery involved in faff will stand you in good stead for aid adventures, because dealing with clutter is part of that game.
;-)
The original post seems to be pretty bomb proof, but the bit with the cows tails seems like a lot of phaffing to me. I once "lead" a route this way, but it didn't catch on.
I use 2 ropes (usually a 70m doubled) with a seperate anchor for each drop. A rope protector for the edge. Directionals if and where required. The tails of the rope are coiled 2 or3 m off the ground, or my pack is tied to them if there's not enough rope. If I get paranoid (meaning scarred) I'll tie a knot in one of the lines (but I rarely do this).
I've been using a shunt for 20 years or so. It's fine. I'm sure all the other things are fine too. I like the shunt because it takes 2ropes. Even when the route traverses so is diagonal, the ropes run fine. I use a steel D million to clip into the shunt - this addresses cross loading when your hands are occupied pulling on rock.
I take a tibloc and a gri gri and a couple of slings for if I can't do the route and need to get up or down.
I've done hundreds of hours with this setup. It's fine. So are all the other ones listed above. It's been several years since I've use a Traxion, so I can't remember it very well, but I would not choose to shock load any toothed device.
I recon the main danger comes from being hit in the head by something falling off the top. I also tell my girlfriend what routs I'm going to do, as that makes both of us feel better.
What I really like about climbing like this is getting loads of climbing really fast. Once the set up is done, I'll do 2 or 3 laps, which goes quick as there's no putting gear in or taking it out. Plus then I can do the routes left and right, off the same anchors, just with a directional (obviously that depends on the layout of the crag though).
I found a little but of experimentation goes a long way to finding what works best for you. Try the grigri every which way, as the main attachment and the backup, and if you have the ability, try different ropes. I have two >10mm ropes and one feeds beautifully while the other sucks bananas!
I've been using the clove hitch for aid self belay for the same reason (it's a big ask of a belayer at my speeds). With the anchor on the ground, connecting to pro as in lead climbing, and feeding more though the clove before the next move. Not very fast but I'm happy just phafing around on a climb and being up on the rock, not laps for me. I had a 1m fall on this system last time and was pleased to find it caught me. Jammed the clove hitch so I backed up with a figure 8 and hung on my daisy while I slid the clove off. I've heard of people using two carabiners, I think this is with the clove over both so it can be loosened after a fall, not sure if I've got that right, but it'd be good to have more than one biner in the system.
I mostly TR self belay for working routes so free running gear isn't so critical as I'm on the rope a lot anyway.
I'm a bit lazy so I only use 1 rope, with suitable edge protection and tend to re-belay about every 10m to avoid too much stretch/bounce/rubbing.
If it's easy and I won't need to lower etc I'm happy on a toothed device (traxion or jumar). The falls are small and I've never seen any indication of damage. If it's harder and I'll need to lower etc I use a Grigri, once again the falls are small.
I have a second jumar as a backup.
The Grigri is great, but if it runs easily on a rope, I worry about it not locking. I normally have it on a fattish rope so you need to haul the rope through by hand.
Thanks for the reply's, lots of good ideas.
I say mainly aid practice but that includes a bunch of laps as well. I had a great day on the NW outcrop last week on Grimulace, Virgo and Talamud. I'm happy with the traxion as the main device as it feeds well and when properly setup there's no potential for shock loading the toothed cam.
I have used the gri gri as the backup a few times and just had a standard dogbone with one loop into my Mallion and the other with a locker into the gri gri which allowed the gri gri to sit just above and offset to the trax.
The knots are a bit of phaff for sure but I'm also happy to pull in slack on the gri gri as it kind of simulates the phaff when leading and hopfully gets me stronger and better at locating rests etc.
I haven't looked into modding the gri gri but i'd like to put a keeper cord onto it for bigger routes. I'm hopefully putting it all together for Ozy later in the yr.
Happy to hear there's no issues with the way i'm doing it other than too much redundancy, better than the other way round!
Cheers
On 29/01/2015 lightfoot wrote:
(snip)
> I'm happy with the traxion as the main device as it feeds well and when
>properly setup there's no potential for shock loading the toothed cam.
>
(snip)
The issue is not shock loading the toothed cam re it's integrity per se, but rather that if shock loading occurs, then those style of cams have plenty of documented accounts of degloving the sheaths of the ropes involved.
I saw an interesting setup at Smith Rock last year:
- Fig-8-on-bight in top end of 9.5 dyno rope clipped to single ring bolt on top of cliff,
- Climber in sit harness with a micro-traxion attached to carabiner at waist,
- Gri-Gri clipped to bottom of rope 1m above ground.
I suppose that's about as light as it gets. I guess the Gri-Gri served 2 roles: weight the end of the rope and also can be hauled up and put on the rope for descent if the climber falls off and can't get back on.
On 29/01/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>but rather that if shock loading occurs, then those style of cams have
>plenty of documented accounts of degloving the sheaths of the ropes involved.
This is where my imagination takes over from my experience. It probably wont de-glove the sheath, but in my imagination my bloody and pulped corpse lay on the ground amongst the remnants of a de-gloved sheath, and that enough for me.