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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 64
Author
daisy chains
gfdonc
15/04/2014
11:22:13 AM
I don't even use daisies for aiding. I recall I gave one away, although still have two in a box.

Best use for a daisy is for attaching the pig at hanging belays so you don't have to hoist the f'ker any higher than minimum.

I do know some people who carry a PAS and are happy with it, but for me it's one thing more to carry (that has lots of loops for catching in stuff).

Climboholic
15/04/2014
11:26:59 AM
Mikl, are you against the use of personal anchoring devices in general or just daisy chains? The article seems to be promoting tying in with the rope, which I get.

But patto seems to believe that using a daisy chain to clip to an equalised anchor is unsafe. A daisy chain is just a sewn sling with bar tacks. IMO gear companies have created the PAS as an idiot-proof daisy chain to avoid liability in case someone is silly enough to clip through two pockets. And what do you know, they found an opportunity to make more money at the same time.

Edit: It confounds me why a climber who knows enough to set up an anchor would fork out $50+ for a PAS. I think using a PAS is a worse 'Climbing Deal Breaker' than a daisy chain as you're buying extra gear just for that purpose.
patto
15/04/2014
11:49:55 AM
On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>But patto seems to believe that using a daisy chain to clip to an equalised
>anchor is unsafe.
I have not said that.


On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>IMO
>gear companies have created the PAS as an idiot-proof daisy chain to avoid
>liability in case someone is silly enough to clip through two pockets.

SIGH... You still don't get it do you. A PAS is not an idiot-proof daisy chain. It is a device that is designed for an entirely different purpose to a daisy chain.

Climboholic
15/04/2014
11:53:44 AM
On 15/04/2014 patto wrote:
>On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>>But patto seems to believe that using a daisy chain to clip to an equalised
>>anchor is unsafe.
>I have not said that.
>
>
>On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>>IMO
>>gear companies have created the PAS as an idiot-proof daisy chain to
>avoid
>>liability in case someone is silly enough to clip through two pockets.
>
>SIGH... You still don't get it do you. A PAS is not an idiot-proof
>daisy chain. It is a device that is designed for an entirely different
>purpose to a daisy chain.

SIGH... That is exactly my point! The device is unnecessary.
patto
15/04/2014
12:01:09 PM
Your previous comments implied that you advocate a daisy chain for personal anchoring.

On 18/03/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>Why a PAS and not a daisy chain?
>
>Daisy chain advantages:
>- Lighter
>- Longer (hence allows more flexibility)
>- Absorbs some dynamic load (nylon): http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/climbing-slings-review
>/buying-advice (it could even work like a screamer???)
>- CHEAPER.
>- Prevents that hollow feeling you get after you realise you've been sucked
>in by marketing spin.
>
>Daisy chain disadvantages:
>- Potential to clip through unrated loop (requires user to expend energy
>to utilise brain)
>
>A PAS/Daisy chain by itself isn't much use without something to clip into.
>A cordolette does the job but it's bulky and heavy. I suggest spending
>your money on a web-o-lette with a sewn loop in each end before a PAS.
>
>
>http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette.htm
>
>A daisy chain and web-o-lette weigh about half what a PAS and cord-o-lette
>does.
>
>

Climboholic
15/04/2014
12:08:43 PM
I do. To clarify, just because a device has been 'designed' doesn't mean there is a need for it. It doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't rush out and buy one is suddenly unsafe.

There is nothing wrong with beginners buying a PAS instead of a daisy chain to clip in on second, but the same argument for it being a CDB applies. By the time you're setting up belays you should know better than to make any of the mistakes that people say make daisies unsafe.
kieranl
15/04/2014
12:14:31 PM
Lots of heat over such a trivial issue. Read the manufacturer's instructions and anything else you like and then use them or not. Up to you, I don't care.
BUT, don't carry one when climbing with beginners - they'll copy you. If you see a novice carrying one, if in your power, take it off them and tell them they can have it back when they want to try aiding.
patto
15/04/2014
12:36:27 PM
100% agree kieran.

On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>There is nothing wrong with beginners buying a PAS instead of a daisy
>chain to clip in on second

This comment implies that it is fine for beginners to buy a daisy chain to clip in on second. That is a worry climboholic, it seems to me you are missing the point.

Miguel75
15/04/2014
1:35:55 PM
ODH I like guessing games but ftfy???

Ed - I don't use the grigri for TR solo (anymore), I use it for rope solo and wearing on my harness at the gym;)

Eduardo Slabofvic
15/04/2014
1:36:57 PM
I meant the guy who wrote the article

shortman
15/04/2014
1:51:43 PM
On 15/04/2014 Miguel75 wrote:
>ODH I like guessing games but ftfy???
>
>Ed - I don't use the grigri for TR solo (anymore), I use it for rope solo
>and wearing on my harness at the gym;)

ftfy - fixed that for you.....ODH added something to the equation when he fixed it for you, :)

Read it again Miguel75....which reminds me....I still have a gri gri waiting for you.

I'll be @ Araps over easter....sort of anyway, :) I'll bring it!

shortman
15/04/2014
1:54:16 PM
I know I am just a new climber and shit still...but everyone who I have climbed with who has a daisy chainy thingy has fuffed it when I have climbed with them. Everyone.

I recently made someone leave it behind and carry a long sling. The protested a bit until I pulled out my scissors, :() ...which...coz I quit smoking I don't carry anymore....
PThomson
15/04/2014
1:59:09 PM
On 15/04/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>
>Edit: It confounds me why a climber who knows enough to set up an anchor
>would fork out $50+ for a PAS. I think using a PAS is a worse 'Climbing
>Deal Breaker' than a daisy chain as you're buying extra gear just for that
>purpose.

Easily answered:

Diversity - It makes it easier to adjust quickly, knowing each loop is a complete loop (rated and without an obvious failure point), and in a position to be efficiently adjusted relative to the changing circumstances of a belay (ie: a full hanging belay).

Efficiency - Faster than tying the rope through the anchor system, and one less entity to take apart when you dismantle the anchor. It also keeps the rope clear of the system -less extraneous crap to complicate in the system. This becomes more important as the rope system becomes more complicated (double ropes in a full-hanging belay, for example).

I can only assume that anyone complaining about the weight must be climbing at the pinnacle of Australian grades (you know, at a point where a few grams of weight actually makes a difference), and is the sort of sport climber who believes taking any more than the EXACT number of draws to climb a pitch is the difference between success and failure, since the average PAS weighs about as much as a set of prussiks. If weight is an issue, eat one less doughnut during your week at work, and already you've saved more than the PAS adds.

So far, in all my climbing, I haven't found any viable argument or safety/technical reason to justify NOT climbing with a PAS. I consider it a hell of a lot more important to an EFFECTIVE day of climbing (rather than a slothful day) than peripherals like "grid lock" or "Belay" Carabiners which are -necessarily- slower to use than a standard 'biner, and superfluous if you're belaying properly. Yet every man and his dog uses those, and I don't see half of this forum denouncing them.

- Paul

shortman
15/04/2014
2:01:23 PM
On 15/04/2014 Cliff wrote:
>? Que es fuffed?

clipped it so it will undo if the stitching breaks

Eduardo Slabofvic
15/04/2014
2:55:09 PM
On 15/04/2014 shortman wrote:
>On 15/04/2014 Cliff wrote:
>>? Que es fuffed?
>
>clipped it so it will undo if the stitching breaks
>

So, in other words, used wrongly.

So therefore, anything that can be used wrongly should not be used. Like a harness, which a beginner might think goes over their head, or a Grigri, which can have the rope threaded in the opposite direction

shortman
15/04/2014
3:03:21 PM
On 15/04/2014 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 15/04/2014 shortman wrote:
>>On 15/04/2014 Cliff wrote:
>>>? Que es fuffed?
>>
>>clipped it so it will undo if the stitching breaks
>>
>
>So, in other words, used wrongly.
>
>So therefore, anything that can be used wrongly should not be used. Like
>a harness, which a beginner might think goes over their head, or a Grigri,
>which can have the rope threaded in the opposite direction

Na...not at all like either of those examples.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/04/2014
3:18:34 PM
On 15/04/2014 kieranl wrote:
>Lots of heat over such a trivial issue. Read the manufacturer's instructions
>and anything else you like and then use them or not. Up to you, I don't
>care.
>BUT, don't carry one when climbing with beginners - they'll copy you.
>If you see a novice carrying one, if in your power, take it off them and
>tell them they can have it back when they want to try aiding.


I disagree.

In fact I deliberately have on many occasions supplied my beginner-climbing partner (at those times), with one for free climbing outings that we have done together.
I also ensure it has a locking krab at the connecting end, plus a second non-locker krab connected to the pocket closest their body, for shortening it, if required, at belays.
Further, I instruct the beginner in its use and emphasise the folly of cross-clipping pockets with the consequences that that could entail.

I also make sure when they arrive at a belay (invariably I am leading, so this is easy to do), that their primary anchor is the climbing rope (already tied to them), clove hitched to the belay/'powerpoint'/anchor.

I really don't give a stuff about its original designed intention in this application, and if they ever go on to do aid climbing with me, then I will instruct them in its aid usage appropriately.

I agree with others on this thread who indicate that the usage of any/all climbing equipment requires an intelligent and appropriate diligence, and further, that that shouldn't stop safe innovation of said usage.



harold
15/04/2014
3:38:57 PM
On 15/04/2014 PThomson wrote:
>Efficiency - Faster than tying the rope through the anchor system, and
>one less entity to take apart when you dismantle the anchor. It also keeps
>the rope clear of the system -less extraneous crap to complicate in the
>system. This becomes more important as the rope system becomes more complicated
>(double ropes in a full-hanging belay, for example).

Really?! (a) You clip your daisy or PAS into a screwgate on the anchor.....
or...... (b) you have your climbing rope that you're already tied to (and is nice and stretchy) and attach it to said screwgate with a clovehitch (which is infinitely adjustable and takes all of 1 second).
I'm pretty sure option b is faster, more convenient and doesn't require extra equipment ... which I think is what the original post was referring to. I see people using these things, just don't understand why.


harold
15/04/2014
3:48:37 PM
and on the negative side for the PAS/daisy, its static so even if you slip or slump on to the anchor it puts more force on your gear (not ideal). Plus you need an extra biner to shorten it.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15/04/2014
3:55:36 PM
On 15/04/2014 harold wrote:
>I see people using these things, just don't understand why.
>
Convenience mostly.

Although many times not applicable, when it is, they make up for it.

The times most likely that it will be convenient is for rethreading for a lower-off (indicated earlier in this thread); cramped multipitch belay stances, particularly if there is 3 (or more!) in the party; abseil descents where the last thing unclipped off the belay is the daisy thus protecting against a possible fall during setting up; using as an improvised bandolier for second to clip retrieved gear to; passing items that may be dropped at airy belays, like camera, etc, where the added security of having it clipped is a backup; I could probably go on with other obscure uses but I am sure you get the drift...

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 64
There are 64 messages in this topic.

 

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