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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 44
Author
Metolius Anchor Chain?

ambyeok
17/03/2014
1:03:15 PM
+1 for the PAS I'm a fan and not ashamed

Macciza
17/03/2014
2:24:13 PM
On 13/03/2014 The good Dr wrote:
>On 12/03/2014 Macciza wrote:
>>Looks somewhat impossible to get any equalisation with it . . ..
>
>Simple if you know what you are doing.
>
What like in the pic Shortman posted of the unequalised setup, with shock-loading extensibility . . .

>Have the single set of loops permanently on the harness and carry a webelette
>for setting up belays. Ceretainly faster than using the rope. Just have
>to remember that there is no one ideal solution for all situations and
>know how to use all the equipment at hand.

If you are having the loops attached to you, then surely you should be using the P.A.S rather then the Anchor System being discussed. ....
Faster then using the rope? Come on, clip a biner and a flick of the wrist later you are tied off with a clove hitch; two more flicks and the other biners tied off as well; in fact let's chuck another clovehitch in for the belay biner and a quick clip and flick and the Munter belay is on . . .
The rope is immediately 'at hand' always - Have you even managed to untie the web/cordalette yet? . .


The good Dr
17/03/2014
2:46:42 PM
On 17/03/2014 Macciza wrote:
>On 13/03/2014 The good Dr wrote:
>>On 12/03/2014 Macciza wrote:
>>>Looks somewhat impossible to get any equalisation with it . . ..
>>
>>Simple if you know what you are doing.
>>
>What like in the pic Shortman posted of the unequalised setup, with shock-loading
>extensibility . . .

Did I say like Shortmans set up?

>>Have the single set of loops permanently on the harness and carry a webelette
>>for setting up belays. Ceretainly faster than using the rope. Just have
>>to remember that there is no one ideal solution for all situations and
>>know how to use all the equipment at hand.
>
>If you are having the loops attached to you, then surely you should be
>using the P.A.S rather then the Anchor System being discussed. ....
>Faster then using the rope? Come on, clip a biner and a flick of the wrist
>later you are tied off with a clove hitch; two more flicks and the other
>biners tied off as well; in fact let's chuck another clovehitch in for
>the belay biner and a quick clip and flick and the Munter belay is on .
>. .
>The rope is immediately 'at hand' always - Have you even managed to untie
>the web/cordalette yet? . .
>
Ha, geez, I've already started on the next pitch. (Did someone say pathetic pissing competition?).

I have found webelettes very handy and in the end it is not an 'ultimate' speed competition. Very useful for long multipitch stuff where carrying two can allow for simple set-ups with a central tie in point which the second just clips into on arrival at the belay. You do not need to dismantle the thing when leading off the belay. Often I use these, sometimes the rope, sometimes other solutions, whatever suits. The anchor system pictured above can be very fast for bolted belays on long multi-pitch routes.

Sabu
17/03/2014
3:37:13 PM
I'm a huge fan of cordelletes and always carry two for a multi pitch route (second carries the spare and hands it over with the cleaned gear). They're most useful for quickly equalising the anchor and when one person is doing most of the leading on a multiple pitch.

I think they're quicker than using the rope but probably not by much, however, I do think they create an easier system to manage. Not as convinced by this anchor chain though and of course a PAS serves a completely different purpose as well.



Macciza
17/03/2014
4:12:28 PM
On 17/03/2014 The good Dr wrote:
>
>Did I say like Shortmans set up?
>
No, but it shows how simply they can be setup badly . . ..

>Ha, geez, I've already started on the next pitch. (Did someone say pathetic
>pissing competition?).
No, but your intent here seems to be to make it into one . . .
You did however make the claim that a web/cordalette was 'Ceretainly faster than using the rope.' to which I responded that they aren't and provided an example ....

>I have found webelettes very handy and in the end it is not an 'ultimate'
>speed competition. Very useful for long multipitch stuff where carrying
>two can allow for simple set-ups with a central tie in point which the
>second just clips into on arrival at the belay. You do not need to dismantle
>the thing when leading off the belay. Often I use these, sometimes the
>rope, sometimes other solutions, whatever suits. The anchor system pictured
>above can be very fast for bolted belays on long multi-pitch routes.

Yep, they can be handy (though not really quicker then the rope) ....
Clipping point for second is available when using the rope as well ...
No need to dismantle if swinging pitches, if not then simply swap ends, no need to reorganise rope stack...
I also use various solutions depending on circumstances ....

gordoste
17/03/2014
5:23:47 PM
Agree with sbm, Sabu & the Good Dr - cordelette is convenient and I usually use one on multipitches, but in my opinion it's pretty much mandatory to know how to set up a rope anchor as well. I also carry prussicks for emergencies whenever climbing outdoors.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
17/03/2014
6:03:37 PM
On 17/03/2014 gordoste wrote:
>Agree with sbm, Sabu & the Good Dr - cordelette is convenient and I usually
>use one on multipitches, but in my opinion it's pretty much mandatory to
>know how to set up a rope anchor as well. I also carry prussicks for emergencies
>whenever climbing outdoors.

Re Prusiks; didja use one on Fundamental Diff of Opinion re your twisted ankle?

Re rope vs cordelette in anchors; both have their advantages/dis-advantages...
In my opinion sometimes a rope-stretcher next lead is the difference in choice...

I agree with Macciza's interpretation of 'equalising loading' on a PAS-style device in a belay setup.

Sabu
17/03/2014
9:16:51 PM
On 17/03/2014 gordoste wrote:
>but in my opinion it's pretty much mandatory to know how to set up a rope anchor as >well. I also carry prussicks for emergencies whenever climbing outdoors.

Oh I absolutely agree on both counts. I was initially taught to use the rope and I would do the same if I were teaching someone else.
patto
17/03/2014
11:39:22 PM
On 17/03/2014 Macciza wrote:
>
>If you are having the loops attached to you, then surely you should be
>using the P.A.S rather then the Anchor System being discussed. ....
>Faster then using the rope? Come on, clip a biner and a flick of the wrist
>later you are tied off with a clove hitch; two more flicks and the other
>biners tied off as well; in fact let's chuck another clovehitch in for
>the belay biner and a quick clip and flick and the Munter belay is on .
>. .
>The rope is immediately 'at hand' always - Have you even managed to untie
>the web/cordalette yet? . .
>
>

WORD

pmonks
18/03/2014
4:03:05 AM
On 17/03/2014 ambyeok wrote:
>+1 for the PAS I'm a fan and not ashamed

+2. I used to be a die-hard "use the rope for the anchor" kind of guy (and still do that from time to time), but the PAS is faster and easier, particularly on multi-pitch sport routes. I suspect it also makes it easier to escape the belay should the need arise, but I haven't had to test that theory yet (touch wood).

Climboholic
18/03/2014
8:48:23 AM
Why a PAS and not a daisy chain?

Daisy chain advantages:
- Lighter
- Longer (hence allows more flexibility)
- Absorbs some dynamic load (nylon): http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/climbing-slings-reviews/buying-advice (it could even work like a screamer???)
- CHEAPER.
- Prevents that hollow feeling you get after you realise you've been sucked in by marketing spin.

Daisy chain disadvantages:
- Potential to clip through unrated loop (requires user to expend energy to utilise brain)

A PAS/Daisy chain by itself isn't much use without something to clip into. A cordolette does the job but it's bulky and heavy. I suggest spending your money on a web-o-lette with a sewn loop in each end before a PAS.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Cordelette.htm

A daisy chain and web-o-lette weigh about half what a PAS and cord-o-lette does.


Eduardo Slabofvic
18/03/2014
8:53:21 AM
On 18/03/2014 Climboholic wrote:
> (requires user to expend energy
>to utilise brain)
>
>
That will never catch on

phillipivan
18/03/2014
10:17:53 AM
On 17/03/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Re rope vs cordelette in anchors; both have their advantages/dis-advantages...
>In my opinion sometimes a rope-stretcher next lead is the difference in
>choice...

Indeed! At least once I've had to completely dismantle my 'made with the rope' anchor so the leader could finish the pitch. I just clipped into one of the bits of gear with a draw.

Block leading is the other obvious example where using the rope has significant drawbacks.

Switching from belayed climbing to simul climbing can be anything from easy to a pain in the butthole depending how much rope is used, and how creatively it's been used.
patto
18/03/2014
10:59:54 AM
On 18/03/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>Why a PAS and not a daisy chain?
>
>Daisy chain advantages:
.....

Why do you keep referring to daisy chains as though that are a sensible personal anchor. The are not nor are they designed to be one.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/03/2014
11:12:02 AM
On 18/03/2014 patto wrote:
>Why do you keep referring to daisy chains as though that are a sensible personal anchor. The are not nor are they designed to be one.

There is the crux of it! ... ie a daisy isn't necessarily a belay anchor (but can be a perfectly acceptable personal anchor), whereas the PAS aims (amongst others) at the belay anchor market.





On 18/03/2014 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>On 18/03/2014 Climboholic wrote:
>> (requires user to expend energy to utilise brain)
>>
>>
>That will never catch on

Maybe this is where I have gone wrong in my ambition to design something that costs little to produce, but can be sold expensively to a mass-market when you play on that markets fear and ignorance!
;-)
patto
18/03/2014
12:15:23 PM
On 18/03/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>There is the crux of it! ... ie a daisy isn't necessarily a belay anchor
>(but can be a perfectly acceptable personal anchor), whereas the PAS aims
>(amongst others) at the belay anchor market.

See, I would even argue against their suitability as a personal anchor. They were never designed for this purpose nor are they particularly good at it.

I still encounter numerous people who think daisy chains are made to be personal anchors. This is BAD. Many don't understand or know about the issues with stitched pockets.

Eduardo Slabofvic
18/03/2014
12:49:36 PM
On 18/03/2014 patto wrote:
>>Many don't understand or know about the
>issues with stitched pockets.

This is no doubt true, but it's not a problem with Daisychains, it's a problem with the people who use them.
Howsie
18/03/2014
1:47:27 PM
rope vs cordelette

A big fan of the cordelette as I'm often leading an entire multi-pitch as either my second does not lead at all or does not lead at the grade. It is also the easiest initial achor system to teach a newby.

Shortman, not being facetious this time ;-) I didnt buy the PAS but it was highly recommended by a very experienced climber, although he admittedly was the shop owner.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/03/2014
1:50:56 PM
On 18/03/2014 patto wrote:
>See, I would even argue against their suitability as a personal anchor.
> They were never designed for this purpose nor are they particularly good at it.
>
>I still encounter numerous people who think daisy chains are made to be
>personal anchors. This is BAD. Many don't understand or know about the
>issues with stitched pockets.

On 18/03/2014 Edward Oslabofvic wrote:
>This is no doubt true, but it's not a problem with Daisychains, it's a
>problem with the people who use them.

I agree with ES, and would add that many of those same people probably think it is ok to 'rest on protection', as one (of a number of) usage application.
After many years of using daisies I find resting on protection is often the more unreliable component, and this would also apply to identical PAS usage!

Just for clarification... What do you consider the purpose that daisies were designed for patto?

Climboholic
18/03/2014
2:01:45 PM
On 18/03/2014 patto wrote:
>On 18/03/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>There is the crux of it! ... ie a daisy isn't necessarily a belay anchor
>>(but can be a perfectly acceptable personal anchor), whereas the PAS
>aims
>>(amongst others) at the belay anchor market.
>
>See, I would even argue against their suitability as a personal anchor.
> They were never designed for this purpose nor are they particularly good
>at it.
>
>I still encounter numerous people who think daisy chains are made to be
>personal anchors. This is BAD. Many don't understand or know about the
>issues with stitched pockets.

I disagree, except to concede that daisy chains may have originaly been designed for aiding. Does everything on your rack have a mutually exclusive purpose? Just because you can hang off it with a fifi hook, doesn't mean you shouldn't clip it to a belay.

You made a blanket statement that daisy chains are BAD, without giving any reasons except idiot-proofing. Have you actually thought about your statement, or do you just have faith that the existance of another product justifies the need? What makes a daisy chain unsuitable to clip into an equalised anchor?

The PAS is yet another example of a cultural shift towards dumbing down of climbing, with the expectation that people are not responsibile for their own safety. I have no problem if people choose to use a PAS, just don't ignorantly pass judgement on others for not following your doctrine.

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 44
There are 44 messages in this topic.

 

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