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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 42
Author
Petzl Roc Pec Hand Drill
tshaw
29/07/2013
8:14:15 AM
On 28/07/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 27/07/2013 tshaw wrote:
>>On 26/07/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>
>>>The energy used to drag it in should be far less than you'll expend
>on
>>>the 20 minutes plus hand-drilling each bolt.
>>
>>Interesting.
>>
>>Just wondering how many holes you would get using one of the light weight
>>drills you mentioned per battery?
>I found this in a post from Neil earlier this year :
>>>To put it into perspective my Panasonic 28v drill would polish off a
>12mmx90mm
>>> hole in hard granite in about 5 seconds. It would also do 20+ holes
>per battery
>>>(or 50+ in the Bluies!). So you certainly do get what you paid for!

cheers for that.

with small windows of time off to get out there, the power drill is looking like a much more efficient option. two batteries should do the trick.

kieranl
29/07/2013
8:54:16 AM
On 29/07/2013 tshaw wrote:
>On 28/07/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>I found this in a post from Neil earlier this year :
>>>>To put it into perspective my Panasonic 28v drill would polish off
>a
>>12mmx90mm
>>>> hole in hard granite in about 5 seconds. It would also do 20+ holes
>>per battery
>>>>(or 50+ in the Bluies!). So you certainly do get what you paid for!
>
>cheers for that.
>
>with small windows of time off to get out there, the power drill is looking
>like a much more efficient option. two batteries should do the trick.
>
>
Yes, even if you only got a total of 30 bolts out of 2 batteries, hand-drilling those holes would take about 600 minutes. a power-drill at 5 minutes per bolt* would take 150 minutes, a saving of 7.5 hours, basically an entire day.
You'll need to work out a tag-line system that minimises the possibility of the drill going flying and taking you out on lead.

* 5 minutes per bolt covers from beginning to haul the drill until bolt is in place and drill is hung and setup so the leader to continue.
tshaw
29/07/2013
9:07:33 AM
On 29/07/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 29/07/2013 tshaw wrote:
>>On 28/07/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>>I found this in a post from Neil earlier this year :
>>>>>To put it into perspective my Panasonic 28v drill would polish off
>>a
>>>12mmx90mm
>>>>> hole in hard granite in about 5 seconds. It would also do 20+ holes
>>>per battery
>>>>>(or 50+ in the Bluies!). So you certainly do get what you paid for!
>>
>>cheers for that.
>>
>>with small windows of time off to get out there, the power drill is looking
>>like a much more efficient option. two batteries should do the trick.
>
>>
>>
>Yes, even if you only got a total of 30 bolts out of 2 batteries, hand-drilling
>those holes would take about 600 minutes. a power-drill at 5 minutes per
>bolt* would take 150 minutes, a saving of 7.5 hours, basically an entire
>day.
>You'll need to work out a tag-line system that minimises the possibility
>of the drill going flying and taking you out on lead.
>
>* 5 minutes per bolt covers from beginning to haul the drill until bolt
>is in place and drill is hung and setup so the leader to continue.

when you break It down like that then power-drill makes sense. 5 mins is quick. I imagine the route will have around 30 bolts or more so saving a day here and there drilling will add up.

I will have to look into tag lines to avoid carnage. Anyone have some good do's or don't's?
kieranl
29/07/2013
9:38:16 AM
Maybe have a look at Pass The Pitons Pete's stuff on continuous loop solo climbing. He has some stuff on tagging systems. which could probably be adapted for use with a drill and a belayer. Here's one link :
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1249450&tn=20

Here are some thoughts I had.
My guess is you want a very light cord, maybe 6mm, from leader to drill that is as long as you're going to go between bolts plus some. This will be packed in the little rope bag clipped to the drill and will feed out as you lead. Then a light, (8.nothing) full-length rope that goes from drill through an extra krab or draw on the current bolt and down to an ATC at the belayer.. The free end at the belayer is clipped into something easily reachable with a very loose knot. This means that if the fifi-hook that the drill and bag are hanging from somehow pops off then the drill will only go a metre or so and everyone will be scared but otherwise OK.
The leader climbs above the bolt with drill and rope-bag hanging from fifi with tag-line feeding out of bag. When a drilling point is reached the belayer locks off the lead line belay device (easy if it's a gri-gri), undoes the knot on the thin line and feeds out thin line as the leader pulls the drill up on the tag-line.

It's going to need some practise to make sure that things don't snag.

sliamese
29/07/2013
12:49:28 PM
Having just come back from a trip involving a fair bit of drillingground up, id suggest doing away with the tag line concept. It only seems useful to me ifthe route is at a grade you could climb it without bolts/gear to a belay, then pull the drill up and rap bolt the pitch. Generally if it needs bolts, there's limited options of good pieces to sit on and sort out a tangled tag line, you'll be hanging off one arm. In that case its much easier to already have the drill on your harness, a bolt on a quickdraw so you can drill, hit the bolt in (trubolt) then sit on it before tightening it up. On hard routes it's easiest to top-step in aiders and use small dynabolts that are removable between proper bolts.

Much easier if you can just get to the top of the wall!!
tshaw
30/07/2013
8:16:09 AM
On 29/07/2013 sliamese wrote:
>Having just come back from a trip involving a fair bit of drillingground
>up, id suggest doing away with the tag line concept. It only seems useful
>to me ifthe route is at a grade you could climb it without bolts/gear to
>a belay, then pull the drill up and rap bolt the pitch. Generally if it
>needs bolts, there's limited options of good pieces to sit on and sort
>out a tangled tag line, you'll be hanging off one arm. In that case its
>much easier to already have the drill on your harness, a bolt on a quickdraw
>so you can drill, hit the bolt in (trubolt) then sit on it before tightening
>it up. On hard routes it's easiest to top-step in aiders and use small
>dynabolts that are removable between proper bolts.
>
>Much easier if you can just get to the top of the wall!!

I hope the route will be a harder grade than I can effectively climb without putting gear in. So rap might be the best option or there could be some sketchy slab climbing.

Definitely can get access to the top. As it is a good size wall rapping in may be the best option.
mikllaw
30/07/2013
1:29:50 PM
You may be able to drill on lead in some circumstances:-
Slabby - you can stand or skyhook on painful little edges and place (limited) bolts.
Good pro with blankish sections - you can topstep or skyhook or drill a little ladder of microbolts, or even freeclimb and drill. On the FA of Discobiscuit it took 4 x 30 second sessions to drill a hole off a bad sloper. On the 2nd ascent it took me 3 shots to clip the bolt.

Generally if the route is largely bolts, rap it. Otherwise you are following features you can drill off (which are often not where the best climbing is).

When Neil and I did Verdun in the Bungles, we soloed to the top then rapped it on double 9 mm ropes. Neil would rap a pitch cleaning, and marking bolt placements with chalk and I'd follow down drilling (in this case 10 x 90 mm Trubolts). That meant leaving rap gear on each anchor if it wasn't bolts. We cleaned and drilled 4 pitches (one took over an hour's cleaning) in about 6 hours. Neil had already led the lower 3 pitches ground up .

We had a Bosch and 2 batteries but only used one, and placed about 30 trubolts, left nice Fixe rap ring hangers on the belays.

sliamese
30/07/2013
10:11:20 PM
top down generally creates better routes i think. cleaner with bolts more carefully thought out and less aid holes etc. most ground up things that are hard are effectively aided on smaller removable bolts, as seen in this video

euro's like the removal bolts that are basically a round ball nut, they seemed shit to me! a 10x40mm dynabolt is much easier to remove. the hot tip is use a 'lucky' (brand) hanger as they have exactly 10mm hole so they grip the sleeve of the bolt easily. most other brand hangers have a 10.5mm hole or so. you could easily make your own for that purpose too.

i dont know how your czech is but this is an impressive video of adam ondra bolting 9a on lead, not resting on the rope etc. I remember seeing another video of Beat Kammerlander on an 8b+ in perhaps the Ratikon? pretty awesome stuff!!

Macciza
30/07/2013
10:40:40 PM
Masonry Screwbolts are far superior and easier to remove then dynabolt, imho . . .

PS Also sometimes people like to go ground up for ethical reasons, such as not cheating . . .
mikllaw
31/07/2013
6:40:33 AM
On 30/07/2013 Macciza wrote:
>Masonry Screwbolts are far superior and easier to remove then dynabolt,
>imho

They work well on blueys sandstone, difficult on hard rock

>PS Also sometimes people like to go ground up for ethical reasons, such
>as not cheating . . .

Agreed, ground up makes a great day's climbing. But rarely a great route.
tshaw
31/07/2013
7:31:23 AM
On 31/07/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>On 30/07/2013 Macciza wrote:
>>>
>Agreed, ground up makes a great day's climbing. But rarely a great route.

you say rarely a great route, is this because of what sliamese mentioned about cleaner bolts and less aid holes?
mikllaw
31/07/2013
8:21:44 AM
No, you go where you can place bolts, not where the good climbing is.

pmonks
31/07/2013
8:25:16 AM
On 31/07/2013 tshaw wrote:
>you say rarely a great route, is this because of what sliamese mentioned
>about cleaner bolts and less aid holes?

Part of it is that when you're going ground up you're never quite sure what'll go, so you end up following the line of least resistance / most pro, likely wobbling all over the place in the process (unless you're following an obvious line - a corner or crack for example).

Note: I've only done one new route of any significance ground up, so my experience with the genre is limited.
tshaw
31/07/2013
3:58:40 PM
makes sense.

cheers for all the help.
mikllaw
31/07/2013
4:49:09 PM
also, obvious but...
Hand drilling you need both hands
Battery you can hang on with one so ground up is more feasible
One Day Hero
31/07/2013
5:53:35 PM
also, obvious but there's lots of tards who don't get it.........

If you go and drill a ton of bolts into shitty non-lines, way the fuch away from civilization, which are guaranteed to never be repeated, you're more of an environmental vandal than a bold explorer.

Duang Daunk
31/07/2013
9:12:02 PM
On 31/07/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>also, obvious but there's lots of tards who don't get it.........
>
>If you go and drill a ton of bolts into shitty non-lines, way the fuch
>away from civilization, which are guaranteed to never be repeated, you're
>more of an environmental vandal than a bold explorer.

Odh understands what is involved.

Are you going to go ground up? If so, then any likely follower will likely appreciate the easiest line, as there is nothing wrong in that concept, as after all, the aim is to top-out and have fun in the process.
It is multipitch yeah?
If that is the case then you wont be fagged bolting the non-line that is revealed by rapping the route, and rapping a multipitch in unexplored territory doesn't always mean that you will be online.

sliamese
31/07/2013
10:58:26 PM
having put a few sport routes up from the top and the bottom, the ones from the top are generally much better as mikl say, you know whats ahead and have a clearer picture of the route as a whole, thus the whole pitch can have the same character.

believe it or not where the bolts go and how many make a huge difference on the experience of the hordes that are going to repeat the new mega-classic (i tell myself they'll repeat it to help me sleep... ) ;)

Macciza
1/08/2013
12:05:40 AM
You can get it horrendously wrong whichever way you do it, up or down - both have pro's and con's . . .

Top down - you are hoping that you are starting at the 'end' of a route, can find a middle, and hopefully end up at a decent start . . . Actually finding them is a different matter . . .
I have seen plenty of poxy top-down bolted routes, that seem to follow the rap line, as opposed to anything I would actually call a 'line' in a climbing sense, which seems to have been ignored. I've seen plenty of (imho) over-bolted rap bolted routes, and also spent a long time trying to work out how to eliminate 1 bolt from a prospective line to avoid the same mistake myself . . .

Bottom up - at least you can find a good start hopefully but whether it is the best start to join a good middle is sometimes a wild guess, as is the hope of an nice ending,
I think you can get a better feel for the route from the bottom with less difficulty, rather then the top, (depending on terrain, and view etc) and avoid having to reset lines multiple times, jug back up from dead-ends and penduluming all over the place . . .

Yes you can power drill one handed off good holds sometimes, it can also be a real bitch sometimes and lead to weirdly placed bolts - you can also most likely use some gear, often a hook on the same hold or something near by to allow you to use two hands to hand drill and find a better bolt position then when hanging on with one hand - falling with a drill can be a real bugger particularly a petrol drill, (which you will need two hands for anyway), You might want to take a few spare drills to replace any that get bent if you slip when drilling one-handed . . .

Ultimately I guess it depends on what your intentions are regarding the route - a 'consumer mega-classic' that will see your name 'up in lights' and be loved by the all and sundry LCDs ; or an actual personal climbing experience full of doubts and unknowns, needing skill and commitment to actual achieve . . .

Me, I prefer the latter whenever possible, or a combined approach - going ground up to establish something with adequate protection and then decide whether it needs additional 'fixing' afterwards . . .
tshaw
1/08/2013
8:24:02 AM
On 31/07/2013 Duang Daunk wrote:
>On 31/07/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>>also, obvious but there's lots of tards who don't get it.........
>>
>>If you go and drill a ton of bolts into shitty non-lines, way the fuch
>>away from civilization, which are guaranteed to never be repeated, you're
>>more of an environmental vandal than a bold explorer.
>
>Odh understands what is involved.
>
>Are you going to go ground up? If so, then any likely follower will likely
>appreciate the easiest line, as there is nothing wrong in that concept,
>as after all, the aim is to top-out and have fun in the process.
>It is multipitch yeah?
>If that is the case then you wont be fagged bolting the non-line that
>is revealed by rapping the route, and rapping a multipitch in unexplored
>territory doesn't always mean that you will be online.



ODH- minimal bolts, natural pro is preferred. Just planning for slabby sections. Also taking into account of Mt Buffalo bolting history and not over bolting lines, make it exciting but safe. Not really looking at it as a bold explorer but hoping to put up a long more adventurous/ maybe multiday route that is enjoyable for myself, friends as well as those climbers out there that enjoy putting a bit of effort into getting to climbs.

it is multipitch.

First few pitchs look to go on natural gear.

Middle pitches - need to be reccied more, so planning to rap in from the top, early days now just planning everything before heading in after winter.


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There are 42 messages in this topic.

 

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