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Black Diamond: SET of 8 "C4" Cams and 8 matching wire gates. Sizes .3 .4 .5 .75 1 2 3 & 4 and 8 anodised "neutrino" - wire gate karabiners. <style>.aqs2{position:absolute;clip:rect(469px,auto,auto,399px);}<style><div class=aqs2><a href=http:xoxviagra.com >  $675.00 <br><font size="2" color="#F0F000"><b>20% Off</b></font> </FONT> </td> </tr> </table> <p> <table width="145" cellpadding="8" ID="Table1"> <tr> <td align="center"> <font face="Arial" size="2" color="#ffffff"> <b> <a href="http://www.chockstonephotos.com" style="color: #ffffff"> <img border="1" src="/images/ChockstonePhotography.gif" border="0" alt="Chockstone Photography"> <img src="http://chockstone.smugmug.com/photos/1657838810_CX23ktd-Ti.jpg" alt="Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell" border="0" vspace="3" width="100" height="67" style="border: 3px solid #111111"/> <br>Australian Landscape Prints </a> <br> </b> </font> </td> </tr> </table> <br> <br> <table width="140" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td align=center> <script async src="//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/js/adsbygoogle.js"></script> <!-- Chockstone --> <ins class="adsbygoogle" style="display:inline-block;width:120px;height:600px" data-ad-client="ca-pub-7690652039861025" data-ad-slot="7975488107"></ins> <script> (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); </script> </td> </tr> </table> <br> </td> <td valign="top" align="left"> <font FACE="Arial"><br> <b> <a href="Forum.asp?Action=Forum&ForumID=6"> <img border="0" src="cam.gif" align="right" hspace="2" vspace="10"> </a> </b> </font> <font FACE="Arial" size="4"><b>Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found</b></font> <p> <font FACE="Arial"> Rave About Your Rack Please do not post <a href="Forum.asp?Action=Help&Topic=SPAM">retail SPAM</a>. </font> </p> <table width="100%"> <tr> <td valign="top"> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Login" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> </form> </td> <td valign="top" align="right"> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="New Topic" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="New Poll" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Topics" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Forums" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Help" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> </form> </td> </table> <p> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <input TYPE="SUBMIT" NAME="Page" VALUE=" >> "><input TYPE="SUBMIT" NAME="Page" VALUE=" >| ">  Page 1 of 4. </font> </td> <td align="right"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> Messages 1 to 20 | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=20>21 to 40</a> | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=40>41 to 60</a> | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=60>61 to 67</a> </font> </td> </tr> </table> <input type="hidden" name="MsgPagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Action" value="DisplayTopic"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24984"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="hidden" name="Replies" value="67"> </form> <table width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" border="1"> <tr bgcolor="#E8E8E8"> <td><font FACE="Arial" Size="2" color="#2266CC"><b>Author</b></font></td> <td> <table width=100% cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0> <tr> <td><font FACE="Arial" Size="3" color="#2266CC"><b>Which auto block device, Reverso 4 or ATC Guide?</b></font></td> <td align=right> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> </font> </td> </tr> </table> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Leah" title="View User's Profile">Leah</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 1/07/2013<br>10:52:58 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24984"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> Hi<br> <br> I'd appreciate some advice on which device I should get. <br> <br> My research so far has confused me a little, so I thought I'd just ask here, as lot of the info was outdated (including on this forum) as it was when the old Reversino was still available.<br> <br> So I have a 10.2mm rope, both Reverso 4 or ATC Guide can handle this no probs, but which is smoother? Also what about when using doubles??<br> <br> Thanks!! </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=One Day Hero" title="View User's Profile">One Day Hero</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 1/07/2013<br>11:15:23 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24985"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> I've tried both, either is good. It's only a belay plate, won't affect your climbing experience significantly. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="tobat3.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=BoulderBaby" title="View User's Profile">BoulderBaby</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 1/07/2013<br>11:26:31 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24986"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> I'd go the ATC, but I'm biased towards BD products. Perfectly fine with doubles, (My ropes are 9.8)<br> <br> I'd defo get a grigri over an eddy though. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="SNAILMAI.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Miguel75" title="View User's Profile">Miguel75</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>12:59:32 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24987"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> Another vote for the guide, or the reverso:) </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=miketg" title="View User's Profile">miketg</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>1:11:08 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24988"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> The age old question.. As ODH says its just a belay device.. ive used both without any noticeable difference. Similarly tend towards Black diamond for no great reason.. other than an affinity for the brand. ATCG works fine for me from 8.5 halves to 10.2 sport rope.<br> <br> Go have fun </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Justcameron" title="View User's Profile">Justcameron</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>1:13:51 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24989"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> I'm with ODH. They are extremely similar devices and will perform almost identically. For autoblock mode I find that you need a bit of force to pull a 10.2mm single through either device (important to have the device free hanging.) They work like a dream with thinner ropes (I have tried 9.6mm and 8.8mm and both are very pleasant.)<br> <br> For top belaying (eg. belaying a second) with a single 10.2mm rope I use a grigri in a similar fashion to how you would use a guide/reverso. No good for double rope abseils though. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=dmc" title="View User's Profile">dmc</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>3:52:33 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24990"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> The Reverso is lighter 59g vs 88g. Not a big deal.<br> The Petzl looks a lot sexier, the BD just looks same same nothing that special<br> But both work as well as each other. <br> Nothing wrong with looking good while belaying!!<br> </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="INDIAN.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Duang Daunk" title="View User's Profile">Duang Daunk</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>8:11:46 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24991"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 dmc wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>The Reverso is lighter 59g vs 88g. Not a big deal.<br></font> <font color=822222>>The Petzl looks a lot sexier, the BD just looks same same nothing that<br></font> <font color=822222>>special<br></font> <font color=822222>>But both work as well as each other. <br></font> <font color=822222>>Nothing wrong with looking good while belaying!!<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> In the gym maybe but who needs a reverso / guide for that specialised use there.<br> For 90% of roped climbing a simple ATC type device is sufficient, and the design has been around forever, just ask kieran or M9 who remember when all these things were invented.<br> <br> The sexy colours wear off with use and scratching, heavier weight is a better heat sink for raps, but as others said there is almost nothing in them, so yor best criteria is which multinational corp do you want to support, France or USofA.<br> <br> A good belayer is watching their leader and their rope management, not other belayers, and passing tourists wouldn't know the difference between a belay and a belayer so what you look like is mute. Simey will likely disagree.<br> </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=technogeekery" title="View User's Profile">technogeekery</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>8:41:46 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24992"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> Whichever one you can get on special. $25 on Rock Hardware for the ATC Guide, hard to beat. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Leah" title="View User's Profile">Leah</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>10:26:24 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24993"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> Thanks everyone.<br> <br> I don't care how they look just how they function, and hey I don't need some sexy looking device to make me look sexy! Hehe<br> <br> The old post on the forum talked about one having advantages over the other, but maybe since then with updated models they are on par. I'll just go the cheapest option. Yes great specials on Rock Hardware, on both devices, but once I add $10 shipping may as well get from a local store. I don't need any other gear at this stage.<br> <br> Happy climbing! </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="addax.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=IdratherbeclimbingM9" title="View User's Profile">IdratherbeclimbingM9</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>10:33:40 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24994"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 Duang Daunk wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>In the gym maybe but who needs a reverso / guide for that specialised<br></font> <font color=822222>>use there.<br></font> <font color=822222>>For 90% of roped climbing a simple ATC type device is sufficient, and<br></font> <font color=822222>>the design has been around forever, just ask kieran or M9 who remember<br></font> <font color=822222>>when all these things were invented.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>The sexy colours wear off with use and scratching, heavier weight is a<br></font> <font color=822222>>better heat sink for raps, but as others said there is almost nothing in<br></font> <font color=822222>>them, so yor best criteria is which multinational corp do you want to support,<br></font> <font color=822222>>France or USofA.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>A good belayer is watching their leader and their rope management, not<br></font> <font color=822222>>other belayers, and passing tourists wouldn't know the difference between<br></font> <font color=822222>>a belay and a belayer so what you look like is mute. Simey will likely<br></font> <font color=822222>>disagree.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <br> Some fair points have been made there by DD.<br> Regarding "ATC type device", if you mean basic sticht plate type design, yes, they have been around a while, since the early 70's if my memory serves me correctly, though kieranl might be able to nail it tighter ;-/<br> <br> From what I have seen, most people seldom (if ever?), use a Guide or Reverso in autoblock configuration*, but instead simply in tube-belay mode, and yes the anodising wears/scratches.<br> (* <A HREF="http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/climbing-belay-rappel/atc-guide-belay-rappel-device-BD620055_cfg.html?dwvar_BD620055__cfg_color=Dark_Denim#start=1">Current link to How To Video: Black Diamond Equipment's ATC-Guide.</A>)<br> <br> Regarding the original post;<br> <font color=822222>>which is smoother?<br></font> <br> This is more closely related to rope diameter. The thinner (and newer), the rope, the smoother they slide through. Note; this can be a negative feature if doing a freehanging abseil especially if wearing a heavy pack(!),... when additional friction techniques may need to be applied.<br> <br> <br> <font color=822222>>Also what about when using doubles??<br></font> <br> They are designed for it, so there is no problem provided your are of normal dexterity!<br> <br> </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=miketg" title="View User's Profile">miketg</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>10:34:31 AM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24995"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <br> <font color=822222>>The old post on the forum talked about one having advantages over the<br></font> <font color=822222>>other, but maybe since then with updated models they are on par. <br></font> <br> They have increase the size of hole used to release a loaded autobloc mode on the ATC guide. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=pecheur" title="View User's Profile">pecheur</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>1:52:25 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24996"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:<br> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>Some fair points have been made there by DD.<br></font> <font color=822222>>Regarding "ATC type device", if you mean basic sticht plate type design,<br></font> <font color=822222>>yes, they have been around a while, since the early 70's if my memory serves<br></font> <font color=822222>>me correctly, though kieranl might be able to nail it tighter ;-/<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>From what I have seen, most people seldom (if ever?), use a Guide or Reverso<br></font> <font color=822222>>in autoblock configuration*, but instead simply in tube-belay mode, and<br></font> <font color=822222>>yes the anodising wears/scratches.<br></font> <br> Lots of people use them in autoblock mode, ajfclark and I at least ;p If you're not going to use them in autoblock mode, a lot of sport climbers seem to have them (WTF), get a Verso or ATC-XP, lighter and cheaper again.<br> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>Regarding the original post;<br></font> <font color=822222>>>which is smoother?<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>This is more closely related to rope diameter. The thinner (and newer),<br></font> <font color=822222>>the rope, the smoother they slide through. Note; this can be a negative<br></font> <font color=822222>>feature if doing a freehanging abseil especially if wearing a heavy pack(!),...<br></font> <font color=822222>>when additional friction techniques may need to be applied.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> Meh, doesn't really matter if you have them teeth down you should be getting enough friction even with a pack, I rap with mine teeth up when unloaded.<br> </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="addax.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=IdratherbeclimbingM9" title="View User's Profile">IdratherbeclimbingM9</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>1:59:20 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24997"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 pecheur wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>On 2/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:<br></font> <font color=822222>>>The thinner (and newer), the rope, the smoother they slide through. Note; this can be a negative<br></font> <font color=822222>>>feature if doing a freehanging abseil especially if wearing a heavy pack(!),... when additional friction techniques may need to be applied.<br></font> <font color=822222>>><br></font> <font color=822222>>Meh, doesn't really matter if you have them teeth down you should be getting<br></font> <font color=822222>>enough friction even with a pack, I rap with mine teeth up when unloaded.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> ... but you are a lightweight ;-)<br> ~> You need to get the full epic experience and do it with an aid rack!<br> ☺ </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=maxdacat" title="View User's Profile">maxdacat</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>2:24:21 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24998"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 Duang Daunk wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>In the gym maybe but who needs a reverso / guide for that specialised<br></font> <font color=822222>>use there.<br></font> <font color=822222>>For 90% of roped climbing a simple ATC type device is sufficient, and<br></font> <font color=822222>>the design has been around forever, just ask kieran or M9 who remember<br></font> <font color=822222>>when all these things were invented.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <br> I think it depends on what sort of climbing you do. If you do a lot of multi-pitch then it can be quite handy to have a guide mode on your belay device as opposed to the simple type. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=pecheur" title="View User's Profile">pecheur</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>2:41:31 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24999"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 maxdacat wrote:<br> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>I think it depends on what sort of climbing you do. If you do a lot of<br></font> <font color=822222>>multi-pitch then it can be quite handy to have a guide mode on your belay<br></font> <font color=822222>>device as opposed to the simple type.<br></font> <br> Really? On multipitch I generally pick a partner who I think can do the pitches relatively efficiently so I use the device in normal mode. <br> <br> I use the device in autoblock predominantly when I expect my partner to fall, so on harder stuff, single pitch to avoid the epics.<br> <br> Using autoblock on a fat single with an efficient partner is just asking for elbow strain. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="eye1a.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=gnaguts" title="View User's Profile">gnaguts</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>3:42:10 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="25000"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 pecheur wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>I use the device in autoblock predominantly when I expect my partner to<br></font> <font color=822222>>fall, so on harder stuff, single pitch to avoid the epics.<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>Using autoblock on a fat single with an efficient partner is just asking<br></font> <font color=822222>>for elbow strain.<br></font> <br> On harder stuff, really? Elbow strain can be got from lots of things . . . </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="CALVIN.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=Phil S" title="View User's Profile">Phil S</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>4:14:46 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="25001"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 ODH wrote:<br> <br> <font color=822222>>On harder stuff, really? Elbow strain can be got from lots of things .<br></font> <font color=822222>>. .<br></font> <br> My guess is. You would know. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#FFF0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td> <img border="0" src="eye1a.gif" width="32" height="32" vspace="2"><br> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=gnaguts" title="View User's Profile">gnaguts</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>4:21:34 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="25002"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 Phil S wrote:<br> <font color=822222>>On 2/07/2013 ODH wrote:<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>>On harder stuff, really? Elbow strain can be got from lots of things. . .<br></font> <font color=822222>><br></font> <font color=822222>>My guess is. You would know.<br></font> <br> Yeah, I saw you at south central when you claimed to be taking a dump.<br> <br> I stuffed mine on an overhanging boulder problem after doing to many chinups the week before. </font> </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#EEE0E1"> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <a href="Forum.asp?ForumID=6&Action=Profile&UserName=pecheur" title="View User's Profile">pecheur</a> </font> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"> </td> </tr> </table> </font> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> 2/07/2013<br>6:02:15 PM<br> </font> <table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tr> <td nowrap> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="25003"> <input type="hidden" name="PagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Sort" value=""> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="View" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> <input type="submit" name="Action" value="Reply" STYLE="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica; FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </form> </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td valign="top"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> On 2/07/2013 ODH wrote:<br> <br> <font color=822222>>I stuffed mine on an overhanging boulder problem after doing to many chinups<br></font> <font color=822222>>the week before.<br></font> <br> Did ODH just admit to bouldering and training?! For shame... </font> </td> </tr> </table> <br> <form name="form" action="Forum.asp" method="post"> <table width="100%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tr> <td valign="top" nowrap> <font FACE="Arial" Size="2"> <input TYPE="SUBMIT" NAME="Page" VALUE=" >> "><input TYPE="SUBMIT" NAME="Page" VALUE=" >| ">  Page 1 of 4. </font> </td> <td align="right"> <font FACE="Arial" Size="1"> Messages 1 to 20 | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=20>21 to 40</a> | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=40>41 to 60</a> | <a href=Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24984&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=67&MsgPagePos=60>61 to 67</a> </font> </td> </tr> </table> <input type="hidden" name="MsgPagePos" value="0"> <input type="hidden" name="Action" value="DisplayTopic"> <input type="hidden" name="ForumID" value="6"> <input type="hidden" name="MessageID" value="24984"> <input 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