Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

Author	Help a chap out - Jumars wanted.
sliamese 6-Jun-2012 2:53:47 PM	no you dont go to the pub, you haul, sleep on heart ledge, rap to ground, climb 11 pitches then sleep on the wall. the best advice about big wall climbing, is don't take any advice from forums about big wall climbing. too many opinions and not enough experience! the biggest hurdle for most is everyone else's notions that its really hard, or you need to be a hardcore climber to climb el cap. its just hard work, not hard... look at all chris macnamara's stuff on youtube and you'll be fine man! get after it!
muki 6-Jun-2012 3:59:56 PM	+1 Sliamese
One Day Hero 6-Jun-2012 4:09:23 PM	On 6/06/2012 sliamese wrote: >no you dont go to the pub, you haul, sleep on heart ledge, rap to ground, >climb 11 pitches then sleep on the wall. > :D Why would you sleep on the ledge if your first step the next morning is to rap to the ground, then climb back up to where you started from??? I'm sure it is an amazing route, but what you described is a little bit bullshit. Not unethical, not cheating, not wrecking anything for anyone else.........it's just a little bit bullshit. If you're unable to see that, maybe you could use a bit of deprogramming from the whole yosemite cult.
One Day Hero 6-Jun-2012 4:13:50 PM	On 6/06/2012 sliamese wrote: >the biggest hurdle for most is everyone else's notions that its really >hard, or you need to be a hardcore climber to climb el cap. its just hard >work, not hard... > Sounds to me like the biggest hurdle is all the total c--ts who get on the routes even though they aren't good enough to climb them. It was the same thing in the Dolomites. If the only people who started climbing were the ones who were capable of topping out, the whole thing would run pretty smooth. Once you get 5 parties of ballbags who can't climb........struggling up the first 5 pitches, flapping for an hour, then rapping back over the top of each other, it kooks the whole route for everybody that day!
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 4:31:23 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >I went to the Bugaboos a couple of years ago, keen on doing the classic >Becky Chouinard (750m gr20, with 2-3hr each way from the tent, across a >cruisy glacier). Some people bivy on the way there, most do it in a very >long day from camp, quite a few get benighted on the route. A bunch of >Japanese guys (5 or 6!!) showed up with haulbags bigger than themselves. >They crossed the glacier and set up base camp, then spent the next week >of stunning weather progressively fixing 500m of rope up the route prior >to their "summit push", thereby tying up the route and wrecking things >for everyone else who wanted to do it. This was widely considered to be >a bit wang. Becky Choinard is different then Salathe. Duh. Your original post stated that fixing to heart on salathe is wrong and implied that any sort of fixing in this way is wrong. Now backtracking you are making the obvious statement (in a roundabout way) that sometimes fixing a route is the wrong tactic. Almost everyone believes that hauling up free blast when climbing any of the routes off of mammoth terrace or heart ledge is bloody stupid because you tie up freeblast to haul when heart is right there. Of course, since you have vast experience climbing these routes on El Cap (sarcasm sensor should be going off) Im sure you would know better. Basically, my advice is for a big wall neophyte, not fodder in an advanced ethics debate. There are many routes where fixing to the ground is appropriate and some where it is not. Im sure he can figure that out.
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 4:39:32 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >On 6/06/2012 crazyjohn wrote: >> >>You mean "people" like Royal Robbins, Tom Frost and Chuck Pratt who fixed >>to heart ledge on the first ascent? > >No, I think it was cool that those dodgy old dudes were doing those routes >dodgy style so long ago. It's awesome that Harding spent a year yo-yoing >up and down the Nose with his ropes hanging off it the whole time......how >do you think it would go down if I tried to do an ascent like that now? Look, I hope you don't take this personal, but you don't really have a clue about what the salathe was about. This climb was a direct challenge to the siege tactics used by Harding on the Nose ascent. They were quite aware of it at the time of the first ascent. Which is why after jugging up to Heart ledge, they chucked off all their ropes and went to the top. Total commitment! It was one of the most inspirational feats in mountaineering history. Fixing to Heart ledges was just logistically the smart thing to do at the time. It was not a siege tactic like Harding's. It is done the same way now for similar reasons. It is interesting how you just invoke the names of these old guys and bandy them about as if just knowing them entitles you to make claims about the style.
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 4:56:38 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >On 6/06/2012 sliamese wrote: >:D Why would you sleep on the ledge if your first step the next morning >is to rap to the ground, then climb back up to where you started from??? >I'm sure it is an amazing route, but what you described is a little bit >bullshit. Not unethical, not cheating, not wrecking anything for anyone >else.........it's just a little bit bullshit. If you're unable to see that, >maybe you could use a bit of deprogramming from the whole yosemite cult. There is a point that you are making but dont actually state it. That is the ethic of: do not go back to the ground once you leave the ground. Lee and Zac from the blue mountains had this ethic on their first trip to the valley. But it is kind of strange. If you think of the salathe as one long pitch instead of a class V big wall you can work it like a sport route and climb it in a day with no hauling from the top to the bottom. The people who have done that have spent many days working it stashing gear, rapping in to work pitches, etc. So what is worse? Its the same logic as redpointing a route. Sure its great to onsight a route. I dont think its bullshit in any way to work a route, though. Using smart logistics on big walls is totally personal and totally specific to the route. There are very few hard and fast rules. Read Tommy Caldwell's article in the last Ascent. He talks about having his ethics, not deteriorate, but change over the course of his big walling career.
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 5:03:00 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >Sounds to me like the biggest hurdle is all the total c--ts who get on >the routes even though they aren't good enough to climb them. It was the >same thing in the Dolomites. If the only people who started climbing were >the ones who were capable of topping out, the whole thing would run pretty >smooth. Once you get 5 parties of ballbags who can't climb........struggling >up the first 5 pitches, flapping for an hour, then rapping back over the >top of each other, it kooks the whole route for everybody that day! I hope you are joking. If your worried about line-ups at routes by bumblies just climb harder. Its easy to be a badass knocking slow climbers on Becky Choinard (no offence, but a nice solo). Why didnt you go climb Watchtower? Its like the people who complain of queues at Araps, because they cant get on The Bard. Climb Wall Street or the 3000 other harder climbs 30 minutes nearby.
One Day Hero 6-Jun-2012 5:37:19 PM	On 6/06/2012 crazyjohn wrote: >Duh. Your original post stated >that fixing to heart on salathe is wrong and implied that any sort of fixing >in this way is wrong. I didn't say it was wrong, I said it's a bit wang. The only reason I said that is because it's a bit wang. Much like ticking a 'trad route' with the gear already in, or jugging the fixed line on Serpentine to work the top pitch then coming back and doing the first pitch later for the full tick, toprope rehearsal, or even people doing Ozy over 3 days with 2 nights spent at the base of the route..............none of this stuff is wrong, it doesn't hurt anyone, it's just a bit wang. I do those sort of things too, I still enjoy climbing like that but at least I'm honest enough to have a chuckle after I 'send' and admit that I often tick things in a slightly bullshit fashion. What would happen if someone bootied the fixed ropes? Giant clusterf--- on the route for the next couple of days, right? So a smooth ascent of the Salathe during normal traffic conditions requires the use of 200m of fixed ropes? That doesn't detract from the route at all?
One Day Hero 6-Jun-2012 5:50:04 PM	On 6/06/2012 crazyjohn wrote: > >I hope you are joking. If your worried about line-ups at routes by bumblies >just climb harder. Its easy to be a badass knocking slow climbers on Becky >Choinard (no offence, but a nice solo). Why didnt you go climb Watchtower? >Its like the people who complain of queues at Araps, because they cant >get on The Bard. Climb Wall Street or the 3000 other harder climbs 30 minutes >nearby. That's an interesting philosophical stance mate. The idea of everyone stepping up to their personal level of incompetence. Instead of climbing a route which you could do at a reasonable pace, why not go and clog a harder route and piss off the folk at the next level up? Why didn't you go solo All Along the Watchtower if you're such a hard hitter? You'll notice I wasn't hanging shit on the nice Canadian blokes who kinda held us up on Becky Chouinard. Just the guys hanging ropes the whole way up the area classic for a week. I agree that complaining about crowds on the Bard at easter is silly, however I did have strong words to the dude who decided to learn how to self belay for 2hrs on that thing which leads up to Tannin..........during one Easter w/e.
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 7:02:07 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: >On 6/06/2012 crazyjohn wrote: >That's an interesting philosophical stance mate. The idea of everyone >stepping up to their personal level of incompetence. Instead of climbing >a route which you could do at a reasonable pace, why not go and clog a >harder route and piss off the folk at the next level up? Why didn't you >go solo All Along the Watchtower if you're such a hard hitter? > >You'll notice I wasn't hanging shit on the nice Canadian blokes who kinda >held us up on Becky Chouinard. Just the guys hanging ropes the whole way >up the area classic for a week. The difference is that there are no queues on watchtower. You wouldnt have clogged it up because there are a million climbers climbing 5.8 and no one climbing 5.11. Just like no one is climbing most of the 3000 other harder routes at araps. It does not take much effort to climb hard enough to get out of the quagmire of line-ups on easy climbs.However, its easy to line up behind bumblies and insult them. . I can see your point. But look at this way: The reason why The Bard and BC route and all the other good moderate routes are queued up is because they are easy. The people queuing up enjoy climbing easy stuff. It is not because the easy routes are better than harder routes. It doesnt take a great deal of effort to go from 5.8 to 5.11. It just takes that extra bit of commitment that mediocre people will not make. For whatever good reasons they have mediocre people log jam at that mediocre grade.
E. Wells 6-Jun-2012 7:11:56 PM	How is it that I have only just now discovered what Banoffee Pie is?
crazyjohn 6-Jun-2012 7:18:50 PM	On 6/06/2012 One Day Hero wrote: > or jugging >the fixed line on Serpentine to work the top pitch then coming back and >doing the first pitch later for the full tick, toprope rehearsal, Actually, it would be more like jugging up the fixed line to the second pitch of Serpentine, leaving a backpack with lunch and puffy jackets, porno mag, beer, etc., then rapping back down and climbing the first pitch, have some lunch, then send the second pitch. It has probably been done many times this way. Ive done it this way. Why not? In fact, thanks for bringing up this comparison because I was going to use it! How about this: You get up to serpentine on a cold day and realize you are going to need at least a jacket after leading the first pitch to belay your second who obviously wants to free the first pitch as well. You decide you will need to take up a backpack because the second does not want to free climb in a puffy. So now you decide to take up a backpack with jackets, lunch, etc. So far, pretty damn obvious. Now imagine there is already a fixed line up to the second pitch, which is usually the case. But instead of jugging up the fixed line, you lead the route with two ropes, then throw down a rope to have your partner tie on your backpack, then haul up the backpack hand over hand and then throw your haul rope back to the ground. You completely ignore the already fixed line out of ethics and lead the first pitch with an extra rope only so you can say that you didnt use the fixed rope. This is essentially your argument for the fixed lines up to Heart. >What would happen if someone bootied the fixed ropes? Giant clusterf--- >on the route for the next couple of days, right? So a smooth ascent of >the Salathe during normal traffic conditions requires the use of 200m of >fixed ropes? That doesn't detract from the route at all? The lines get taken down by the climbing ranger all the time. You can rap the route with a couple 50s if you wake up on heart after hauling your gear to find the ropes magically gone. If you need to jug up to heart you can easily replace the ropes by climbing freeblast. Look, bro: If you knew ANY of the logistics involved it might be an interesting discussion. But you simply do not know what the F you are talking about here. Im not saying you could not raise some points if you did know the situation, you just simply are talking out your ass about this. EDIT: And its not a crime to haul up Freeblast. Its not that hard to do. Its just logistically smarter to haul up to heart. You certainly dont HAVE to. And it doesnt destroy the route if the fixed lines are down. You are the one trying to paint the route in black and white. This could be alot more interesting if you stuck with climbs you were familiar with.
Miguel75 6-Jun-2012 7:47:34 PM	So far it's been an interesting, though usually off topic Chocky discussion; ~70 posts and few answers;) Firstly- have you found some ascenders? Secondly- what routes are you planning on climbing? EDIT- while I'm asking silly questions, anyone know who the gunmen on the grassy knoll were?
IdratherbeclimbingM9 6-Jun-2012 8:00:42 PM	On 6/06/2012 muki wrote: >+1 Kuu Different thread? ... as he hasn't posted on this one! ☺ On 6/06/2012 dangermouth wrote: >How is it that I have only just now discovered what Banoffee Pie is? ? On 6/06/2012 Miguel75 wrote: >So far it's been an interesting, though usually off topic Chocky discussion; >~70 posts and few answers;) > Does this irk you? It seems OK to me and certainly hasn't been negative! >Firstly- have you found some ascenders? > shortman offered his. You missed that! (twice?) >Secondly- what routes are you planning on climbing? > I agree, he hasn't divulged that info yet. >EDIT- while I'm asking silly questions, anyone know who the gunmen on >the grassy knoll were? If you are talking WW2, Japs? Heh, heh, heh.
Ben_E 6-Jun-2012 8:34:07 PM	^^^ I think he's talking the assassination of JFK. Only slightly less on topic than the rest of the thread!
IdratherbeclimbingM9 6-Jun-2012 8:39:00 PM	On 6/06/2012 Ben_E wrote: >^^^ I think he's talking the assassination of JFK. Only slightly less on >topic than the rest of the thread! Wasn't he shot from the window of an adjoining building? ... depending on whether or not you believe in the Lee Harvey Oswald conspiracy theories! ;-)
E. Wells 6-Jun-2012 9:22:14 PM	According to Southpark he was in the book depository. I wonder how he got up there, and down.
Miguel75 6-Jun-2012 9:27:02 PM	On 6/06/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >On 6/06/2012 muki wrote: >>+1 Kuu > >Different thread? ... as he hasn't posted on this one! ☺ > >On 6/06/2012 dangermouth wrote: >>How is it that I have only just now discovered what Banoffee Pie is? >? I'm with you on this one. I'm too scared to google exactly what a baniffee pie is, as the last time I googled a new word I was supremely traumatized! Who would have thought felt... never mind. > >On 6/06/2012 Miguel75 wrote: >>So far it's been an interesting, though usually off topic Chocky discussion; >>~70 posts and few answers;) >> >Does this irk you? >It seems OK to me and certainly hasn't been negative! > Again, you're right. There's not too much negativity and there's a few nuggets of awesomeness amongst the usual dross. My highlight has been the reunion of Keiranl and his long lost jumar... >>Firstly- have you found some ascenders? >> >shortman offered his. You missed that! (twice?) True, many have offered, as did I. I was just looking to see if Ollie was squared away. >>Secondly- what routes are you planning on climbing? >> >I agree, he hasn't divulged that info yet. And this serious case of divulgelessness has me traumatized no end;) > >>EDIT- while I'm asking silly questions, anyone know who the gunmen on >>the grassy knoll were? > >If you are talking WW2, Japs? >Heh, heh, heh. >
Miguel75 6-Jun-2012 9:39:00 PM	On 6/06/2012 Ben_E wrote: >^^^ I think he's talking the assassination of JFK. Only slightly less on >topic than the rest of the thread! I apologize for heading off topic again. To get it back on track I would like to bandy about a bit of conjecture. If said grassy knoll gunmen actually existed, would they fix pitches or just blast the route top to bottom? And if they fixed, would they use jumars or prussicks?

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