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directional gear

anthonycuskelly

4-May-2012
2:39:33 PM

I've used stacked wires in an anchor, nothing else would fit. Bit off a faff, really.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2012
2:48:31 PM

ODH wrote:
>*only for fairly specific circumstances

We are on the same page / agreement.
Likewise my comment about 'Jesus piece' is a simplified generalisation; ... as your (valid) example of climbing past a wide ledge, is yet another example of (generalised) exception to the 'normal' rules of placements.
In your scenario (as you pointed out), the Jesus piece is required above the ledge, and also as you pointed out, anywhere the rope radically changes direction, such as traversing starts on vertical finish style of climbs.

On 04/05/2012 ODH wrote:
>When I learned to climb, there were lots of people who talked about stacked nuts.......not sure anyone ever used it in anger. I also remember talk of wedging slung stitch plates/biners as emergency pro. Fark knows if any of the old kooks ever really did it, I certainly never needed to (although I did sometimes stuff around at belays frigging stacked nuts in as an exercise in wasting everyones time). I can't imagine trying to arrange stacked nuts with one hand, while sketching and pumping on a route, it's hard enough to get an ok placement with both hands. They're extremely untrustworthy in parallel cracks anyway.

Ahh ODH, we seem to differ again! (Some posts/threads are like that, heh, heh, heh).

~> OK, yes generally you are right (just want to sort that one out right up front!), but if placed by someone experienced in the dark art of jiggery pokery with gear, stacked nuts can be extremely reliable, even in parallel (includes the horizontal variety too), cracks!
I have taken falls on stacked nuts I placed in reasonably straight cracks, and found them a far harder proposition to remove after such, than if they had been a single piece.

For the casual reader of this thread, maybe some context is in order.
Placing stacked nuts in todays modern gear world is definitely faffing for the most part (thanks ac!), but back before slcd's and after bongs, that was the time when they came into their own! ...
I gained such confidence in them then, that even today* I still carry a couple of 'double slung nuts' (2 nuts threaded on one cord, that can be used stacked in opposition), on my rack for the odd (or emergency) placement.
Doubled slung nuts are a lot easier to place as stacked, than two individual wired stacked nuts...

*OK, I know I am a dinosaur, but that doesn't corrupt the fact that they can work well. The trick to placing them securely is often to slightly cant one at an angle to the other, rather than direct mirror opposition to it. In my experience the DMM stoppers with the slight groove in their backs lend themselves to this technique particularly well... Likewise utilising any available rugosity in the crack can help security of placement immensely.

Re placing gear while sketching and pumping out. We tried to avoid that back in those days, though I find myself doing more of it now than ever! Heh^x3

mikllaw

4-May-2012
3:09:00 PM

On 4/05/2012 will5686 wrote:
>I have also been told a story about a guy falling off the top of a climb
>and the whole thing unzipping from the bottom because he hadn't placed
>a single peice that would take an upward pull...

It may well be a story, but I haven't read it. It has happened in real life many times. Particularly on a steepening slab with the belayer well out from the base (i.e. Curtain Call at Piddo).

Learn how to lead trad? Die, then work out where you went wrong

anthonycuskelly

4-May-2012
3:28:59 PM

M9, not always unnecessary though: sometimes a placement just won't take anything else (I remember a slot too shallow for a cam, and I had no hexes). And if you thread the loop of the "unclipped" wire over the loop of the clipped wire, the whole thing stays together nicely. Ish.

One Day Hero

4-May-2012
4:02:21 PM

I think Anthony is talking about having both wires facing down, the only reason you'd do it is because you've run out of the bigger size. Me, M9, and Kieran (I think) are talking about one wire facing down stacked against one facing up, forming a "sliding wedge" thing which may hold in parallel cracks.

On 4/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>I have taken falls on stacked nuts I placed in reasonably straight cracks,
>and found them a far harder proposition to remove after such, than if they
>had been a single piece.
>
Yep, I'm sure you can get good placements by stacking nuts..........I just haven't ever been in a situation where it was the best thing to do. Btw, the fact that stacked nuts are hard to get out after a fall is a selling point for cams.

Cams;
-super easy to place/remove (especially after a fall)
-usually multidirectional
-may be untrustworthy in slippery/flaring cracks

Stacked Nuts;
-need to be a magician to place with one hand
-will be welded to the rock after a fall
-any placement which is slippery/flaring enough to cause concern with cams will be worse with stacked nuts, owing to sliding friction between the nuts.

It doesn't hurt to learn how to stack nuts, I just don't ever seem to need it. M9, if you can direct me to a spot where opposed nuts are the best solution, I'll be impressed.

kieranl

4-May-2012
4:19:44 PM

On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:

>It doesn't hurt to learn how to stack nuts, I just don't ever seem to
>need it. M9, if you can direct me to a spot where opposed nuts are the
>best solution, I'll be impressed.
Maybe this one
But I agree it's an esoteric thing and one I haven't had to use for over 20 years. The best example I ever saw was Keith Egerton stacking a 10 and 11 hex together on the crux section of Genuine Wage Overhang at Stapylton as we were missing one tube size.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2012
4:52:48 PM

On 4/05/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>It doesn't hurt to learn how to stack nuts, I just don't ever seem to
>>need it. M9, if you can direct me to a spot where opposed nuts are the
>>best solution, I'll be impressed.

~> ODH skimmed the 'point in time' reference? With modern gear, there is hardly any need to do it these days.
The double slung jobbies I carry are actually more a part of my 'emergency' gear than the mostly-used rack. They are on cord of the right diameter and length to use as prusiks so the 'multiple use 'aspect justifies carrying them in my mind. Truth is, that they get used more for extending sling lengths on some routes/belays than any other function they may perform!

Re;
> Maybe this one

>

This is what Joe came up with to back up the piton on the first belay. Awesome.

~> That photo shows a placement that is entering the scary-aid end of the spectrum!
(Note: I am not saying they aided the climb, just that the placement looks typical of hard aid type placements).


wallwombat

4-May-2012
5:21:12 PM

heh heh heh!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2012
5:29:28 PM

This is not a digatcha ODH, just a placements critique / clarification in respect of the points you raised with regards to the photo.

>The route looks nice and straight up to the point the climber is at, if
>the belayer were standing in against the base of the route none of the
>gear would get lifted in a fall. If the belayer wants to stand back, you'd
>want a directional piece on each rope (looks like only one rope going through
>the blue sling).

Belayer is not much out of frame below the pic (where the two ropes would converge), and is at base of the wall rather than away from it. The lower pro on the wall isn't great (but is adequate), but because the climb continuously trends right and avoids the roof by traversing under the ceiling and going around the arete on the skyline, it was going to come in for significant drag which would apply strong sideloading. Hence double ropes as only the left was clipped at the ceiling (and extended with a long sling too!), leaving the right to cater for around the arete.
>
>It does look like the blue sling is doing a good job for the rope it's
>on...........so I'll have to admit that you're right. I'm still happy with
>my version as the general rule though. If you kept adding length to that
>blue sling, it would decrease the drag, and decrease it's ability to keep
>higher pieces in the rock (looks like you got the length spot on)

If I had used a single rope I would have done it the same way, but was mindfull of potential rope-drag later on the pitch, so that is why I didn't clip the second rope as I didn't want hassles on the wall around the arete.

I climbed up the corner to place the first bit of gear, then down climbed to ground to take on the face direct, starting at the pseudo-mini-arete. I did it this way as I am a wuss and with the sloped rocky landing, did not want to risk a groundfall getting to the first ½ reasonable gear placements on the wall proper…

> However, if you put any old bit of gear in the corner, any old sling length, then
>made sure the next piece was good for an outward and sideways pull, it'd
>be just as sweet in this case and more transferable to other situations.
>
I considered that, but did not like the possiblity of dragging my rope under tension along the sharp edge if I took a fall higher up.

@ Pat
>Looks like the blue slung placement's karabiner might be facing the cliff . . if so tut tut.

The wide sling is laying flat to minimise abrasion on the sharpish edge, so there is no other way for the krab to lay once a rope is clipped to it, though I did make sure the gate was facing out (& potentially down in a fall), rather than against the rock.

@ Big G
>is that streak eminating from the leaders backside evidence of his confidence in the placements?

Heh, heh, heh.
In my opinion the crux of the climb (that isn't mentioned in the description as being so), is climbing the powdery holds in the birdpoo streak!


Climbau

4-May-2012
5:36:48 PM

On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
> M9, if you can direct me to a spot where opposed nuts are the
>best solution, I'll be impressed.

The Spartan at piddington takes two #11 (maybe 10&11?) hexes stacked nicely if you don't have one of those large slcd thingys(or cajones big enuff to just run out the offwidth) and if memory serves me correctly enuff On Both Sides Of The Glass final pitch at NarrowNeck takes a stacked 8&6 nut. Placement is kinda between sizes and i couldn't didn't have a cam that would sit wellenuff.

One Day Hero

4-May-2012
5:41:15 PM

On 4/05/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>~> ODH skimmed the 'point in time' reference? With modern gear, there
>is hardly any need to do it these days.

Sorry, I didn't mean to disrupt your train of thought from the "good ol' days". The funny thing is, when I started climbing in the 90's cams had been around for 15yrs, and people were still teaching beginners to stack nuts........I guess it would be fun to weird out some gen-y climbers by leaving a trail of bad ideas from the past for them to clean as they second you.

Did anyone else get taught the concept of rolling the cord round a hex to pad it out/ make it cam better? Also, opposing wire in a horizontal. (I know this is actually useful, but the way it was presented to me when I started, you'd think it was crucial on every pitch)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2012
5:49:32 PM

On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>.......I guess it would be fun to weird out some gen-y climbers by
>leaving a trail of bad ideas from the past for them to clean as they second
>you.
>
Oiy, stop ruining my favourite sandbag technique!

>Did anyone else get taught the concept of rolling the cord round a hex
>to pad it out/ make it cam better? Also, opposing wire in a horizontal.
>(I know this is actually useful, but the way it was presented to me when
>I started, you'd think it was crucial on every pitch)

You mean it's not crucial?
~> Bugger. I've been sandbagged again!


Climbau

4-May-2012
5:50:43 PM

On 4/05/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Did anyone else get taught the concept of rolling the cord round a hex
>to pad it out/ make it cam better? Also, opposing wire in a horizontal.
>(I know this is actually useful, but the way it was presented to me when
>I started, you'd think it was crucial on every pitch)
Never heard of the cord roll before!
Opposing wires was never emphasised as much during my apprenticeship days. I was taught it and have used it, but stacking was the focus when it came to "unconventional" gear.


ajfclark

4-May-2012
9:57:36 PM

Of the things I've learnt that I never thought I'd use, threading two nuts together to reach a placement was up there.

I actually did this today.

There are 34 messages in this topic.