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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 59
Author
Belaying from the rope loop

davidn
8-Apr-2012
8:30:21 AM
On 7/04/2012 sliamese wrote:
>Rope loop, belay loop its all a moot point really;
>
>Both far inferior than using an autolocking device(reverso/guide) off
>an anchor.
>
>Your not in the system
>Can keep a tighter rope(good for alpine speed)
>Can drink eat etc while belaying much more safely
>Haul system already in place should anything unlikely happen
>Less room for human error(dropping someone)
>
>So why stick with the old school when theres better ways? Change isnt
>a dirty word...

The anchor is a system which includes yourself and the pieces/bolts. If the anchor is sketchy, then putting yourself and your stance between the anchor and a fall can be good idea because you can reduce/avoid the load on the anchor.

No doubt someone will reply that anchors must always be bombproof...

Reverso/guide are a bit scary in the hands of newer climbers too (in terms of lowering).

"What would you know Dave, you never climbed anything in your life!!!"

(just helping you out Damo - I'm still married though, sorry)

Pat
8-Apr-2012
8:07:37 PM

>
>Note my first post, where I mentioned that if I'm climbing with some useless
>saggy lump, I belay with a gri gri on the anchor (so that I can nod off
>while they're busy wasting my time).
>
>I think we can safely assume that if your climbing partner became exhausted
>after getting entangled in a fixed rope at araps (rather than on the Hillary
>Step, a more popular location for that little trick), they were a pretty
>shit climber.
>
>Strictly speaking, if one person leads all the pitches (and especially
>if they lead them clean and fast), while the second creeps and slumps and
>"takes" all over the place, then it's more like unpaid guiding than proper
>climbing. I pity the fool who does most of their climbing in 'guide mode'!

Yep you are right. My eight year old daughter was a pretty shit climber at the time, and it was like climbing in guide mode except that I was a pretty shit guide for letting the ropes get so ballsed up, so not worth being paid anything. At least I hadn't taught her to call 'take' at the time - she just screamed and cried when she took a two meter fall. More fool me.


Miguel75
8-Apr-2012
9:48:27 PM
On 8/04/2012 Pat wrote:
>Yep you are right. My eight year old daughter was a pretty shit climber
>at the time, and it was like climbing in guide mode except that I was a
>pretty shit guide for letting the ropes get so ballsed up, so not worth
>being paid anything. At least I hadn't taught her to call 'take' at the
>time - she just screamed and cried when she took a two meter fall. More
>fool me.

Haha, how old was your daughter (kids) when you got them onto a 'real' outdoor climb?

Pat
8-Apr-2012
10:39:42 PM
I've got pics of both in a nappy, just a couple of meters up a small top rope, so about age 2.5 - 3. Trouble is the victim in this story is now 12 and seconding around 17-18 depending on how technical the climb is - so she is snapping well and truly at my heels. I need to give up the fight now . . . Where are my cardigan and slippers?

ChuckNorris
8-Apr-2012
11:10:10 PM
On 7/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>That sounds a bit more respectable than davidn's effort at engineering
>an epic. Did you get any photos?
>
>I guess you're right, if you go climbing on the chossy crap up in the
>land of queens, probably better to belay off the anchors!

Although not as gruesome as Edwierdo's story....

It can also happen on arapiles choss. I was guiding a kid at araps donkeys ago. When some grade 10er fell and with rope stretch managed to get her leg stuck and cammed in a wide flake. She was pretty much upsidedown so I started hauling to get her right....however it got to a point where my hauling caused more screams cos I was pulling her up at the wrong angle and prolly slowly working at breaking her leg. So I tied her off and escaped the belay (shock horror) and down soloed to her (it was only grade nine or 10) and just pulled her out. Climbed back up and we finished the climb.

So that's two situations ODH.
anthonycuskelly
9-Apr-2012
8:56:11 PM
Mark, it depends on how you're using it: a lot of the Brits using this technique are also using the rope as a connection to the anchor, so there is no adjacent strand loading.
One Day Hero
10-Apr-2012
2:34:21 PM
On 8/04/2012 bomber pro wrote:
>It can also happen on arapiles choss.
>
>So that's two situations ODH.

Yeah.......can you not read or something? If I'm guiding people who can't climb (not that I really do that anymore, because it sucks), I belay off the anchors. Therefore escaping the belay isn't a problem, since the belay is pre-escaped.

I don't really climb many multipitch routes where I'd expect the second to fall (let alone hurt themselves)........Bungonia is one spot where I get on multipitch hardish routes, so I belay off the anchor, can't think of any other crags (pt perp is kind of different, I just leave a grigri at the top and use that to belay). Are there any top belayed pitches at araps where you'd actually expect a competent second to fall off?
Wendy
10-Apr-2012
5:35:51 PM
Strange bloody british idea. If your rope loop is tied to the same size as your belay loop, than clipping both won't change the weighting on either you or your anchors. And I'd rather be through both than just the rope, which is weighting the figure 8 in less than optimal ways with the exception of when the anchor is directly above you and the knot weighted straight downward. I see no advantages over just being on your belay loop really. And more room for error. Knot not tied properly. Clipping the tail instead of the loop. Or the bit between the 8 and the stopper. Clipping the main bit of rope. Yes, I know, you shouldn't be dumb or casual enough to be doing any of that, but given that people manage to accidently belay or abseil off gear loops or just the waist or legs of their harness, I'm going to expect them to fûck up on the rope loop too.

Regarding belaying directly off the belay with a self locking device: the advantages are myriad! Whilst I can't remember any massive emergencies that i had to escape the belay for, not being the belay is very useful. You can move around, stick your nose over the edge to see what's going on, take photos, move out of rain or rockfall, suss out the next pitch. I've extended my leash and wandered down to where someone is to sort out dramas whilst still belaying them. You can have your hands free to do other stuf (eat, put layers on, take photos, sort rack, set up haul/abseil/pull pack up, blow your nose ....). Your second doesn't need to clip in, they can just hang off it (if leading every pitch on a long route, i'll even carry 2 reversos - leave the one you have just finished belaying with, it's an easily adjustable safety for them, grab the other one off them from the last belay and off you go). Taking in is super quick, rarely a problem to keep up with the fastest of climbers (and Damo, just throw that fat, stiff, fuzzy rope out ... yes, I know reversos suck with wire cables. it's not an issue with nice ropes). I can change the reverso onto me safely in a matter of seconds, I'd argue it saves time rather than wastes it. I actually feel like telling people off when they come up to my belays, faff about with slings to clip themselves in, start using individual bits of gear and hanging off a single quickdraw or some messy attempt to pretend to equalise the pieces when I have a perfectly good equalised loop there with a self locking device they can hang off or clip straight into with the rope whilst they sort the rack ... that's what I call wasting time at a belay. Have you done that one to me yet? Did I sit there and look frustrated? Or just fix it all up for you wordlessly?

And I can fall off no shortage of top belayed routes at the mount on second. Then there are those moments when you spend 20 minutes on the rope getting stuck gear out and don't have anything you can clip yourself into around them, so hanging on your poor belayer it is. But try any of those long hard routes on Tiger wall for starters. Or the Pharos. or Reaper Buttress. Does that make me an incompetent second? I seemed to have climbed with a few similarly incompetent seconds too.

One Day Hero
10-Apr-2012
8:13:52 PM
On 10/04/2012 Wendy wrote:

>......a whole bunch of crap relating to guiding/one person leads every pitch.

Yes, I get it. When you guide, it's best to use a reverso on the anchors.

>Your second doesn't need to clip in, they
>can just hang off it

You don't really find hanging belays on most multipitch routes.

>just throw
>that fat, stiff, fuzzy rope out ... yes, I know reversos suck with wire
>cables. it's not an issue with nice ropes

I don't like it even with a new 10mm rope.


>Have you done that one to me yet? Did I sit there and look
>frustrated? Or just fix it all up for you wordlessly?
>
No, we haven't really climbed many multipitch routes together, certainly nothing difficult

>Then there are those moments when you spend 20 minutes on the rope getting
>stuck gear out

I don't remember you spending any more than 20seconds getting any of my gear out

>But try any of those long
>hard routes on Tiger wall for starters. Or the Pharos. or Reaper Buttress.

Like I said, if I think the second is likely to fall, I'll pop them on the reverso. If I was climbing with you on stuff like Eurydice, Skink, Auto da Fe.....and other good mileage day stuff, I'd probably belay off my harness, because it'd be quite surprising if you fell seconding and inconceivable that you'd get injured to the point of needing a rescue.

> Does that make me an incompetent second? I seemed to have climbed with
>a few similarly incompetent seconds too.

No, but we've never done any fast mileage climbing together........I suspect that you might get a bit freaked out by some the techniques involved.
Wendy
11-Apr-2012
8:54:25 AM
On 10/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 10/04/2012 Wendy wrote:
>
>>......a whole bunch of crap relating to guiding/one person leads every
>pitch.
>
>Yes, I get it. When you guide, it's best to use a reverso on the anchors.

Yeah, but i'd do it regardless. even if we were only climbing euridice. i find it to be quicker and easier regardless.
>
>>Your second doesn't need to clip in, they
>>can just hang off it
>
>You don't really find hanging belays on most multipitch routes.

still there are plenty of belays where it's just easier to be tight to the anchors and not trying to balance yourself.
>
>>just throw
>>that fat, stiff, fuzzy rope out ... yes, I know reversos suck with wire
>>cables. it's not an issue with nice ropes
>
>I don't like it even with a new 10mm rope.

join the modern world and get a skinny rope! To be perfectly honest, with a single, i'd be carrying my cinch anyway, not the reverso.
>

>
>>Then there are those moments when you spend 20 minutes on the rope getting
>>stuck gear out
>
>I don't remember you spending any more than 20seconds getting any of my
>gear out


Really? You're almost single handedly responsible to my revival of gear welding. I can't believe I haven't cursed getting any of your gear out. Actually, i curse Doug on a regular basis. He seems to have a talent for putting in hard to get out gear. It's starting to impact on my image of myself as pretty bloody good at getting gear out!
>
>>But try any of those long
>>hard routes on Tiger wall for starters. Or the Pharos. or Reaper Buttress.
>
>Like I said, if I think the second is likely to fall, I'll pop them on
>the reverso. If I was climbing with you on stuff like Eurydice, Skink,
>Auto da Fe.....and other good mileage day stuff, I'd probably belay off
>my harness, because it'd be quite surprising if you fell seconding and
>inconceivable that you'd get injured to the point of needing a rescue.

Sure, perfectly reasonable assumption ... but still, i find it more ergonomic to have a high belay with a self locker - hauling in off your harness inevitably involves learning forward or taking lots of small lengths in. Basically, I don't like it! I won't tell you it's unsafe and that you can't manage any crap that happens when belaying like that. But that doesn't change my first assertion, that this bloody rope loop thing is pointless weird British nonsense.
>
>> Does that make me an incompetent second? I seemed to have climbed with
>>a few similarly incompetent seconds too.
>
>No, but we've never done any fast mileage climbing together........I suspect
>that you might get a bit freaked out by some the techniques involved.

Hmmm ... I may be the world's biggest wuss, but i do have half a mountain head as well - you don't spend months in the alps without developing one. Just don't put me on snow and ice. I still hate snow and ice.
anthonycuskelly
11-Apr-2012
9:15:06 AM
On 11/04/2012 Wendy wrote:
[snip]...that this bloody rope loop thing is pointless weird British nonsense. [/snip]

According to an old geezer I've climbed with (ok, my girlfriend's dad), it came from the early days of harnesses (yes, he started that long ago) and some pretty sketchy anchors: completely removing yourself from the belay was regarded as unsafe (you could rip the whole anchor), but belay loops were a tad weaker than the rope (or non-existent).

So, not originally pointless, but perhaps unnecessary now.
Wendy
11-Apr-2012
9:47:08 AM
surely whillans harnesses didn't even have separate leg and waist bits? so the biner could just go through the waist where the rope was? And I remember when bod harnesses didn't have belay loops - you just put the biner through both bits. and if you were using the rope loop to redirect the weight onto the anchor, surely anchor failure would involve shock loading you and thus making it more hazardous? On the extremely rare occasions when I've had to use my arse as part of the belay, I have me nicely equalised with all the other assorted mank i'm hoping will hold.
anthonycuskelly
11-Apr-2012
9:55:22 AM
I'm having to paraphrase a bit, so maybe not doing the best job of explaining his reasoning.

Equalisation of yourself as an anchor piece is necessary in the scenario. By using the tie-in, the equalisation to the anchor can be "better" (more equalised), as there isn't another link (ie, your harness) in the chain. Tie-in with a bowline is advisable as they're not susceptible to cross loading.

I feel like I'm doing a bad job of explaining this.

ajfclark
11-Apr-2012
10:00:04 AM
I think we need a whiteboard, or failing that one of Mikl's paint drawings.
kieranl
11-Apr-2012
10:06:48 AM
On 11/04/2012 Wendy wrote:
>surely whillans harnesses didn't even have separate leg and waist bits?
>so the biner could just go through the waist where the rope was?
Wendy, you have to remember that people back then really had no idea what we were doing. We thought we could hold falling fridges on waist belays. I think when I had a whillans harness and sticht plate I used to use the screwgate on the crotch strap to belay. It was probably only rated for body-weight, if it was rated at all.
Wendy
11-Apr-2012
10:13:21 AM
On 11/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 11/04/2012 Wendy wrote:
>>surely whillans harnesses didn't even have separate leg and waist bits?
>>so the biner could just go through the waist where the rope was?
>Wendy, you have to remember that people back then really had no idea what
>we were doing. We thought we could hold falling fridges on waist belays.
>I think when I had a whillans harness and sticht plate I used to use the
>screwgate on the crotch strap to belay. It was probably only rated for
>body-weight, if it was rated at all.

i like this explanation!
Wendy
11-Apr-2012
10:17:37 AM
I don't know that it's your explaining that's the problem! I guess if you are sitting back so that the rope loop is pulling down on you as equally as it is pulling down on the anchor it might be more equalised ... but it sounds awkward and unlikely. those photos on uk climbing don't have the belayer equalised as part of the anchor. I still like Keiran's explanation.
Wendy
11-Apr-2012
10:20:21 AM
Anyway, using the rope loop would be a silly way to equalise yourself into an anchor. Much better to create an equalised point to clip you to tight in the position that you are best able to contribute to the anchor is and belay straight off you. I've been know to use the haul loop as well as the front loop to do this when i've had about 8 bodgy anchors all over the place - I became the central point!
anthonycuskelly
11-Apr-2012
10:28:14 AM
On 11/04/2012 Wendy wrote:
>I don't know that it's your explaining that's the problem! I guess if
>you are sitting back so that the rope loop is pulling down on you as equally
>as it is pulling down on the anchor it might be more equalised ...

That's what I was driving at. And as for 8 pieces of gear... that was more than a rack! :D

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 59
There are 59 messages in this topic.

 

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