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Belaying from the rope loop

stonetroll

5-Apr-2012
9:45:04 PM

On 5/04/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>
>On 2/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Belaying off the belay loop allows your partner to swing through for
>their
>>lead without excessive faff.
>
>I doubt belaying off the tie-in loop would change that scenario.☺
>
>... and to answer M75's original query; I use whatever method seems appropriate
>at the time, as they both can have dis/advantages depending on the specific
>belay circumstances!
>

I think that part of ODH's reply is in relation to belaying off the anchors.

alpinejoy

5-Apr-2012
10:57:21 PM

I don't like. If the tail on the figure 8 isn't long enough it could force it to role undone, the same reason you don't figure 8 isn't used to join two ropes for abseil.

Also, if you are in the habit of threading the tail back trough the eight this could be instant fail: (german)

http://alpen.sac-cas.ch/de/archiv/2010/201011/ad_2010_11_09.pdf

davepalethorpe

5-Apr-2012
11:41:37 PM

On 5/04/2012 alpinejoy wrote:
>I don't like. If the tail on the figure 8 isn't long enough it could force
>it to role undone, the same reason you don't figure 8 isn't used to join
>two ropes for abseil.
>
>Also, if you are in the habit of threading the tail back trough the eight
>this could be instant fail: (german)
>
>http://alpen.sac-cas.ch/de/archiv/2010/201011/ad_2010_11_09.pdf
>

Different scenario. If this happened when belaying from the rope loop there would have been a lot of dead brits by now!

Hagges

6-Apr-2012
11:36:18 AM

On 2/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>In 17 years of climbing, I've never had to
>'escape the belay'...........why would you ever have to do this? I have
>trouble imagining a scenario where a second becomes so incapacitated that
>the leader has to 'escape the belay' and then ?????

Have you seen Touching the Void?

One Day Hero

6-Apr-2012
12:25:57 PM

On 6/04/2012 Hagges wrote:

>Have you seen Touching the Void?

Yep, he escaped the belay just fine.

rolsen1

6-Apr-2012
1:16:11 PM

From my experience with this, if your rope loop isn't tight then it can be a bit difficult to belay quickly (and safely) when bringing up a fast second. This is due to the extra movement available to the belay device (it moves with the rope rather than the rope moving through it) and also due to the device being positioned further away from your body.


Eduardo Slabofvic

6-Apr-2012
2:30:05 PM

On 6/04/2012 Hagges wrote:
>On 2/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>>In 17 years of climbing, I've never had to
>>'escape the belay'

Then you're fine, don't worry about. It will never happen to you. I mean, 17 years, that's such a long time. You must have been everywhere and done everything by now.

...........why would you ever have to do this?

You wont, as there will never ever be a situation where you have to do this, so don't worry.

I have
>>trouble imagining a scenario where a second becomes so incapacitated

(such as rock fall leading to injury?)

>that
>>the leader has to 'escape the belay' and then ?????

........ not become a victim.
>
>Have you seen Touching the Void?

Good point. So the lesson for everyone is that if you ever happen to find yourself in the unfortunate situation of climbing with Day One Hero, then remember to take your knife, as DOH is totally on board with you cutting the rope and letting him drop, rather than staying on belay while you go off and do what ever it is you think you need to do.


Doug

6-Apr-2012
3:14:45 PM

On 2/04/2012 Miguel75 wrote:
>Found this tidbit on the UKclimbing site;
>
>Does anyone on chockyland utilize this option when belaying a second?

Not for about the last 20 years. If you're belaying, it's for a reason: your second or leader might fall. And, if so, a debilitating injury is always possible so it makes sense to be able to escape the system. Belaying off your tie-in loop adds another - and more difficult - step in extracting yourself from the system.

One Day Hero

6-Apr-2012
4:10:40 PM

On 6/04/2012 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>
>Then you're fine, don't worry about. It will never happen to you. I
>mean, 17 years, that's such a long time.

So, you've had to "escape the belay" Eduardo? Tell us your tale of skill and bravery.
>
>there will never ever be a situation where you have to do
>this, so don't worry.

There may be some day, but the chances seem to be very low.......in fact it seems like there's about half a dozen other serious situations in climbing (which have also yet to happen to me) that are likely to come up first.
>
>(such as rock fall leading to injury?)
>
You seen many of those? Rockfall smashs the second so badly that the leader has to tie them off, rap down, and do a full rescue? I'm sure it happens all the time at araps.
>
>>Have you seen Touching the Void?
>
>Good point. So the lesson for everyone is that if you ever happen to
>find yourself in the unfortunate situation of climbing with Day One Hero,
>then remember to take your knife

The lesson is that if you're lowering someone using a platform of loose snow/your arse as the anchor, and then the person you're lowering goes over a cliff, and you run out of rope, and there's no communication, and they can't prussic for some reason, and your belay seat starts to disintergrate.............then one way or another, someone is about to get fuched! Knowing how to escape the belay won't be of much use.

Hagges

6-Apr-2012
9:38:04 PM

On 6/04/2012 Doug wrote:
>On 2/04/2012 Miguel75 wrote:
>>Found this tidbit on the UKclimbing site;
>>
>>Does anyone on chockyland utilize this option when belaying a second?
>
>Not for about the last 20 years. If you're belaying, it's for a reason:
>your second or leader might fall. And, if so, a debilitating injury is
>always possible so it makes sense to be able to escape the system. Belaying
>off your tie-in loop adds another - and more difficult - step in extracting
>yourself from the system.

Escaping from either the tie in or belay loop shouldn't pose any extra difficulties. It's very nearly the same steps

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3295

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3472


Pat

6-Apr-2012
10:32:40 PM

It is handy to be able to escape the belay. I belay from a cordelette on pretty much all the multi pitches I do. In 30 plus years of climbing I have only had to escape the belay once and I was very pleased to be able to do this to be able to move out to the lip where I could see what was going on and help a very scared second to sort out a tangle they had got themselves in with a second rope that was hanging on the pitch. Not quite on topic but still about escaping the belay.


Eduardo Slabofvic

6-Apr-2012
11:11:13 PM

On 6/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 6/04/2012 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>>
>>Then you're fine, don't worry about. It will never happen to you. I
>>mean, 17 years, that's such a long time.
>
>So, you've had to "escape the belay" Eduardo? Tell us your tale of skill
>and bravery.

See below

>>
>>there will never ever be a situation where you have to do
>>this, so don't worry.
>
>There may be some day, but the chances seem to be very low.......in fact
>it seems like there's about half a dozen other serious situations in climbing
>(which have also yet to happen to me) that are likely to come up first.
>>
>>(such as rock fall leading to injury?)
>>
>You seen many of those? Rockfall smashs the second so badly that the leader
>has to tie them off, rap down, and do a full rescue? I'm sure it happens
>all the time at araps.

No. Crookneck, second pitch of the east face route. In the days before mobile phones were invented. One person with head injuries, and another with a compound femur fracture. And yes, it was what I would call a full rescue (no chopper though - they weren't invented yet either).

No skill or bravery was required. Unless you call being able to abseil, drive a car, and ring for an ambulance, run around and find other climbers and ropes to help get a stretcher up to the belay, lower off the injured and carry them out, as qualifying as demonstrating "skill and bravery".

>>
>>>Have you seen Touching the Void?
>>
>>Good point. So the lesson for everyone is that if you ever happen to
>>find yourself in the unfortunate situation of climbing with Day One Hero,
>>then remember to take your knife
>
>The lesson is that if you're lowering someone using a platform of loose
>snow/your arse as the anchor, and then the person you're lowering goes
>over a cliff, and you run out of rope, and there's no communication, and
>they can't prussic for some reason, and your belay seat starts to disintergrate...........
>.then one way or another, someone is about to get fuched! Knowing how to
>escape the belay won't be of much use.

Knowing how to leave the person on belay, attached to the anchor and safe, while you escape the belay, to what ever you need to do, may save you (and maybe even them). But hang on minute, no it wont, because you wont do it, so you'll be screwed. Stuck there, forever bonded to corpse on the other end of the rope until you, yourself, become a corpse.

I'll survive because I set up my anchors so I can escape the system. You'd still be stuck up on the side of Crookneck. Unless you cut the rope and let your friends die. Both of my friends survived.

Good luck. You'll need it one day.

One Day Hero

7-Apr-2012
11:32:41 AM

That sounds a bit more respectable than davidn's effort at engineering an epic. Did you get any photos?

I guess you're right, if you go climbing on the chossy crap up in the land of queens, probably better to belay off the anchors!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

7-Apr-2012
3:28:05 PM

On 7/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>I guess you're right, if you go climbing on the chossy crap up in the
>land of queens, probably better to belay off the anchors!

Have you done the East Face Route of Crookneck ODH?

It is a shame this classic is now closed in my opinion as it has a bit of everything; ... history/rusted relics of fixed pro; thin bouldery crux on the first pitch, juggy bridging the chimney on 2nd pitch, and adventurous shrubbery avoidance on the third! ... Oh, and an epic thrown in too if you climb with ES apparently!
☻


Pat

7-Apr-2012
8:08:01 PM

On 7/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>That sounds a bit more respectable than davidn's effort at engineering
>an epic. Did you get any photos?
>
>I guess you're right, if you go climbing on the chossy crap up in the
>land of queens, probably better to belay off the anchors!

My incident was at Arapiles - that other choss pile.


sliamese

7-Apr-2012
10:19:55 PM

Rope loop, belay loop its all a moot point really;

Both far inferior than using an autolocking device(reverso/guide) off an anchor.

Your not in the system
Can keep a tighter rope(good for alpine speed)
Can drink eat etc while belaying much more safely
Haul system already in place should anything unlikely happen
Less room for human error(dropping someone)

So why stick with the old school when theres better ways? Change isnt a dirty word...

One Day Hero

8-Apr-2012
12:35:55 AM

On 7/04/2012 sliamese wrote:
>Both far inferior than using an autolocking device(reverso/guide) off
>an anchor.
>
I don't think that's true all of the time.

>So why stick with the old school when theres better ways? Change isnt
>a dirty word...

I agree. I started out belaying from my harness, changed to belaying from the anchors with an atc, changed to belaying from the anchors with a reverso (once they became available), changed back to belaying off my harness, and am now in the process of changing to simulclimbing on most long routes (thereby properly escaping the belay!)

I believe in horses for courses. Try pulling 60m of fuzzy 10.5mm rope through a reverso at the speed which a good climber can second up an easy pitch..........it's a pretty silly way to get pumped.

B.t.w. How do you belay a traverse?

One Day Hero

8-Apr-2012
12:52:48 AM

On 7/04/2012 Pat wrote:
>
>My incident was at Arapiles - that other choss pile.

Note my first post, where I mentioned that if I'm climbing with some useless saggy lump, I belay with a gri gri on the anchor (so that I can nod off while they're busy wasting my time).

I think we can safely assume that if your climbing partner became exhausted after getting entangled in a fixed rope at araps (rather than on the Hillary Step, a more popular location for that little trick), they were a pretty shit climber.

Strictly speaking, if one person leads all the pitches (and especially if they lead them clean and fast), while the second creeps and slumps and "takes" all over the place, then it's more like unpaid guiding than proper climbing. I pity the fool who does most of their climbing in 'guide mode'!

patto

8-Apr-2012
6:12:01 AM

Belaying or clipping anything to the rope loop is causing unnecessary risk if you're using your tie in is a figure-8.

Figure-8 knots behave VERY poorly under 180degree, adjacent strand loading and have resulted in several abseil deaths in Europe. The knot rolls and fails at low loads when loaded.

This sort of loading is quite possible when you clip the rope loop as is an unnecessary risk. At the very least tie a stopper knot if you insist on using this technique.

patto

8-Apr-2012
6:29:43 AM

On 8/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>Strictly speaking, if one person leads all the pitches (and especially
>if they lead them clean and fast), while the second creeps and slumps and
>"takes" all over the place, then it's more like unpaid guiding than proper
>climbing. I pity the fool who does most of their climbing in 'guide mode'!

Or they're single and they're working hard to change that!

There are 59 messages in this topic.