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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 73
Author
trad + grigri

Eduardo Slabofvic
29/02/2012
12:01:54 PM
Just get your partner to stand directly underneath you, that way when you fall off, you'll land on them instead of the ground, thus avoiding a ground fall
Linze
29/02/2012
12:03:14 PM
On 29/02/2012 andesite wrote:
>n 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>I agree tying down the belayer is not ideal, but since using a Grigri
>won't actually solve your problem, I thought I'd mention it

im not so sure? be it slippage or some other mysterious factor (such as user reaction time?? variabilty in the way the device is used???), i would rather have an automated device when the ground is approaching quickly...
kieranl
29/02/2012
12:24:46 PM
On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 andesite wrote:
>>n 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>>I agree tying down the belayer is not ideal, but since using a Grigri
>>won't actually solve your problem, I thought I'd mention it
>
>im not so sure? be it slippage or some other mysterious factor (such as
>user reaction time?? variabilty in the way the device is used???), i would
>rather have an automated device when the ground is approaching quickly...
Wake up mate. You're perfectly right - this doesn't happen to other people normally. You say somewhere that the grigri regularly hits the first draw, that tells me that your belayer is being pulled at least a couple of metres and I'm guessing probably more. you aren't hitting the ground because she's dropping you, it's because she's being pulled across the ground and up in the air letting you fall extra metres.
Stop waffling about belay devices and sort out what's happening to your belayer. Tie her down or stand her straight under the first draw. Otherwise you are going to get hurt and it won't be her fault.
One Day Hero
29/02/2012
12:30:13 PM
Have you considered any other other course of action? Perhaps you could become a feeder?

benjenga
29/02/2012
1:01:33 PM
On the topic of multi direction peices I was always taught that the first placement on any trad climb should be capable un upward movement, cam if possible to avoid unzippering the whole pitch. True or false?

skink
29/02/2012
1:07:38 PM
On 29/02/2012 benjenga wrote:
>On the topic of multi direction peices I was always taught that the first
>placement on any trad climb should be a cam if possible to avoid unzippering
>the whole pitch. True or false?

False

Have you not been reading this thread:

On 28/02/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>This kinda highlights why 'rules based learning' is inferior to 'concepts
>based learning' in climbing. The list of rules and exceptions you'd have
>to learn in order to make good decisions in any given situation is massively
>more complex than the concepts you'd need to understand for the same level
>of competence.
>
>Therefore, when you learn that "you must do A whenever situation B presents
>itself", it pays to also find out why.
kieranl
29/02/2012
1:11:26 PM
On 29/02/2012 benjenga wrote:
>On the topic of multi direction peices I was always taught that the first
>placement on any trad climb should be a cam if possible to avoid unzippering
>the whole pitch. True or false?
False. Ideally there should be a multi-directional runner at the start of each pitch. This does not have to be a cam. Cam placements aren't necessarily multi-directional.

p.s. you should also try to place gear to allow for changes in rope direction during a pitch - Snowblind is a good example.

IronCheff
29/02/2012
1:20:42 PM
On 29/02/2012 benjenga wrote:
>On the topic of multi direction peices I was always taught that the first
>placement on any trad climb should be capable un upward movement, cam if
>possible to avoid unzippering the whole pitch. True or false?

False. Though there is some truth in it. If the belayer is directly underneath the climb and the climb goes straight up then there will be no outwards pull on the pro. Otherwise having the first piece being able to handle any outward or sidewards forces is a good idea. It doesn’t have to be a cam though, it can be a good deep nut placement or 2 opposing nuts, 1 pulling up and the other down.
Linze
29/02/2012
1:20:58 PM
On 29/02/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>>On 29/02/2012 andesite wrote:
>>>n 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>>>I agree tying down the belayer is not ideal, but since using a Grigri
>>>won't actually solve your problem, I thought I'd mention it
>>
>>im not so sure? be it slippage or some other mysterious factor (such
>as
>>user reaction time?? variabilty in the way the device is used???), i
>would
>>rather have an automated device when the ground is approaching quickly...
>Wake up mate. You're perfectly right - this doesn't happen to other people
>normally. You say somewhere that the grigri regularly hits the first draw,
>that tells me that your belayer is being pulled at least a couple of metres
>and I'm guessing probably more. you aren't hitting the ground because she's
>dropping you, it's because she's being pulled across the ground and up
>in the air letting you fall extra metres.
>Stop waffling about belay devices and sort out what's happening to your
>belayer. Tie her down or stand her straight under the first draw. Otherwise
>you are going to get hurt and it won't be her fault.

i get the feeling we climb in differnt styles. i sport climb almost exclusivly, in which (in my mind) soft belays are a matter of safety... i think that a larger danger in this case is, as friend did, smacking the wall and breaking something. so for me dynamic belays are a part of climbing safely and enjoyably, ocassionally in this particular situation it means soft scrapes with the ground... but i would consider creating a static belay system a far greater danger

my gf and i have climber together for 4 years and it seems to be working, on occasions the falls gets pretty outragous but never dangerous, i never accused her of dropping me and not sure why you put this in your post, she is a damn good belayer. she stands what she deems to be the correct position in relation to the first draw and understands that this can be used to improve the dynamic nature of a a belay were required. she would probably think you were a bit of a @ss for assumung that i should dictate where she stands and how she belays. she hates hanging/static belay arrangments becasue they create drama for her becasue of weight. we havent trad climbed together yet, but will soon, and she didnt wanna use an atc becasue she is comfortable with the currrent set up. because i do little trad climbing i still held onto the no gri gri for trad rule, im sure if you come sport climbing up in the bluies there will be some equally trival piece of knoweldeg that your not sure about that i may be...

i think that you may have underestimated our abilty to calculate and manage risk, as you did my knowledge of placing gear... i reckon you are pretty wide of the mark calling people you know bugger all about dangerous based on the evidence of a few selcted parts of a few posts...

Macciza
29/02/2012
1:25:57 PM
On 29/02/2012 benjenga wrote:
>On the topic of multi direction peices I was always taught that . . .

Basically true, but for outward not upward movement, and depending on the situation . . .

And yes, cams are probably better at dealing with rotational forces than single passive pieces . . .

And particularly true for overhanging routes, or 'modern' belays whop like to stand 3-5m back from the wall, or lean backwards on the rope, or any of the other bizarre habits modern belayers seems to have . . .


pecheur
29/02/2012
1:46:13 PM
On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>i get the feeling we climb in differnt styles. i sport climb almost exclusivly,
>in which (in my mind) soft belays are a matter of safety... i think that
>a larger danger in this case is, as friend did, smacking the wall and breaking
>something. so for me dynamic belays are a part of climbing safely and
>enjoyably, ocassionally in this particular situation it means soft scrapes
>with the ground... but i would consider creating a static belay system
>a far greater danger
>
>my gf and i have climber together for 4 years and it seems to be working,
>on occasions the falls gets pretty outragous but never dangerous, i never
>accused her of dropping me and not sure why you put this in your post,
>she is a damn good belayer. she stands what she deems to be the correct
>position in relation to the first draw and understands that this can be
>used to improve the dynamic nature of a a belay were required. she would
>probably think you were a bit of a @ss for assumung that i should dictate
>where she stands and how she belays. she hates hanging/static belay arrangments
>becasue they create drama for her becasue of weight. we havent trad climbed
>together yet, but will soon, and she didnt wanna use an atc becasue she
>is comfortable with the currrent set up. because i do little trad climbing
>i still held onto the no gri gri for trad rule, im sure if you come sport
>climbing up in the bluies there will be some equally trival piece of knoweldeg
>that your not sure about that i may be...
>
Kieran gets a little fired up but genuinely cares about climbing safety.

Try this for size (even in sport), this is what I do when I have partners greater than 20 kgs lighter than me. Being tied down does not mean zero movement. If you tie your partner with enough slack so that they can't reach the first draw, in general that's at least 2 metres worth of slack. For argument's sake, put her on a 1 metre leash worth of slack, gives her room to move, to belay from beside you in the early part of the climb, then stand below you later or whatever.

If you take a whipper and she gets dragged up 1 metre in the air, that's cool. If you're worried about damage from a hard fall after your partner's moved up 1 metre (besides grounding at the second draw which grigri or atc, that won't help) even in sport then you need to look at what you're doing because that's a soft catch at any normal human weights.

Macciza
29/02/2012
1:46:35 PM
Re the original post,
I think there is more to the grigri issue than simply the probable increased loading . . .
Most sport climbs these days have massively 'dumbed-down' safety parameters, bolts @ 2m centres on clean rock with little objective danger. Lots of trad does not offer the same opportunities for pro and have more potential dangers.
Rope control is often an important factor for trad , sometimes you need to let a bit of rope run through for safety reasons. Gri-gris can provide semi-dynamic belays through harness,body movement etc but are not anywhere near as good at dynamicism as ATC's, or even better, Sticht-plates or an 8.
Most sport belayers these days know very little about dynamic belaying, just go to your average punter crag and watch, there are plenty there that I would never let belay me .
One solution for single pitch climbing would be for your girlfriend to wear her backpack with a bit of extra weight in it to even up the score a bit . . .

climbau
29/02/2012
1:55:31 PM
A couple of suggestions;
1. (sport climbing) Don't skip clips. Just 'cause everyone else does, doesn't mean you have to or should do. Especially seeing as though you know the weight difference causes groundfalls/scrapes.
2. (trad climbing OR sport climbing) Instead of anchoring the belayer, why not try anchoring the belay device. The belayer can clip in short to the device of choice and maintain control without being dragged off the ground. Granted, this method will compromise the dynamicity(?) of the belay but will stop the belayer from being thrown around like a rag doll (provided the length of anchor strap is correct). When using a Grigri etc whilst clipping bolts and wanting to not be slammed into wall or roof lip the belayer can keep enough slack in the system to avoid those issues (clearly judgement plays a big part).
3. (trad climbing) place gear often and don't run it out un-necessarily. Shorter falls have less time to generate energy (let the engineers and physicists prove me wrong now!).
4. (trad climbing) Utilise "screamers" on suspect/smaller pieces to absorb more energy?
Dynamic belays are just one, very effective, way to minimise forces on the belay/er and climber and protection. (*Macca is right, rope craft is something many modern belayers don't learn and don't even think about)

And on a more sensitive topic. Maybe your girlfriend doesn't like being told where to stand, but it is your body hitting the deck( or potentially) so you have every right to advise and even insist if you feel strongly enough. If she cannot respect that don't let her ego determine your fate, go climb something else. Linze, I freely admit that I do not know you or your girlfriend and this means I am making assumptions (albeit based on the behaviour of strangers that I see at the crag (and even at the local shopping centre!)) please do not take my comments as inflammatory.

*POST EDIT* I have a problem with people referring to Grigris/Cinchs/Eddys etc as Auto-locking, I keep getting images of complacent belayers running around thinking they can eat a sandwich, drink a beer, and talk on the phone whilst doing the second most important task in climbing (the first being that the leader never falls! :P). I prefer to refer to them as assisted-locking devices.

*****POST EDIT EDIT**
Hmm, maybe I need to climb more and think less :(((

Sonic
29/02/2012
2:20:13 PM
I tend to agree with Kieran and climbau. My ex is 20 or so kgs lighter than me. I have climbed in the bluies and nowra for years and I ALWAYS tell her where to stand but never anchor her down. I, like yourself still clipped the floor occasionally, but only falling near the deck, say, around 2nd bolt. I think you need to assess the belay a little better once it comes to trad. Like said above, I don't know you personally, but in my (seemingly very common) experiences, I think alot of the answer lies there.

On the initial topic I have climbed mid 20s on gear with lighter belayers using a gri gri and never had a problem falling off - but I always made sure they were near to the line of the first piece as possible and I always made sure it was bomber.

**POST EDIT ABOUT THE ABOVE POST EDIT**
I totally agree. They are advertised as an 'assisted braking device' - autolocker is a term made up by someone else. It shits me that people think the device will just do it all for them - but alot of people for some crazy reason these days learn on a gri gri or the like instead of an atc and think that way. I think its crazy.
kieranl
29/02/2012
2:31:35 PM
On 29/02/2012 Linze wrote:
>i get the feeling we climb in differnt styles. i sport climb almost exclusivly,
>in which (in my mind) soft belays are a matter of safety...
Having your second anchored is not the same as having your grigri clipped directly to an anchor. There is still a fair bit of give in the system. Modern ropes are pretty good at absorbing fall energy. Very dynamic belays were a necessity in the days of hemp ropes. We have moved on.
> i never
>accused her of dropping me and not sure why you put this in your post,
Never said you accused her of dropping her. But, if you hit the ground without pulling gear there are only two possibilities : the first is that there is too much rope already out in the system and the second is that your belayer has dropped you.
In this case I would say that you have too much available rope in the system.

It's just frustrating to see people spend so much time fussing about the small stuff, which belay device should I use, how much force does a belayer tied to the ground exert on the top runner in a fall? For most people, most of the time that stuff matters diddly squat.
What matters are things like : am I hitting the ground after falling off? If you're answering yes to that then you should be seeing red lights flashing and hearing loud bells.

climbau
29/02/2012
2:37:01 PM
Also, don't be afraid to place back-up pieces. 12 crappy #1 RPs(equalised if possible) in a shallow Blue Mountains seam is better than 1 (or none).

Sabu
29/02/2012
2:50:46 PM
This might be an obvious question but for the sake of clarity, surely you're not expecting to fall as much on trad as you would normally on sport??

Falling on trad is more of a last resort in my opinion, and if you do, the only thing that matters is that you are still alive (and relatively uninjured). Her comfort, your comfort, and the forces on the whole system are irrelevant provided everything holds and you are alive. That's the way I see it.
ZERO
29/02/2012
3:16:18 PM
I think the simplest solution is to climb trad within your limits until:
a) your girlfriend puts on heaps of weight;
b) you lose heaps of weight;
c) you get a bigger girlfriend; or
d) you learn to make better decisions as most of the input has suggested.

just remember:
GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE.
PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.

climbau
29/02/2012
3:16:34 PM
Many climbers forget that it is about the system, you adjust the components within the system to suit the situation.

No-one can tell you a magic one size-fits-all solution to your problem. You need to learn a number of solutions and understand the many factors involved. Earlier in the thread some were complaining about an arse covering response they received about GriGris. What do you expect? When you ask a broad question, you get a broad answer. How long are the pitches? What is the experience of the user? Is the protection on the route solid? We cannot expect to be given a definitive black and white answer to a question with so much variability. Use your own judgement, and if you don't like the answers you get to the questions you have asked and the reasons that you give, then that's just too bad. Accept it, learn from it, and move on. Or define your question.
We are but human, and as such we will constantly make mistakes. Our ego will either lead us to believe we are right, despite the fact, and will deceive us in many different ways so that we don't feel shit about being wrong. Or we learn, accept, and continue lifes' lesson. The cool thing is that we get to choose the way in which we move through life.
In other words, don't succumb to the method but embrace the system.

Macciza
29/02/2012
3:38:31 PM
On 29/02/2012 Sabu wrote:
>This might be an obvious question but for the sake of clarity, surely you're
>not expecting to fall as much on trad as you would normally on sport??
>
This might seem like an obvious response, but surely it makes very little real difference unless you are talking about marginal gear trad routes . . .
For the overwhelming majority of falls there is little safety difference between a bolt and decent gear . . .

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