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 Page 3 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 71
Crack climbing gloves - the ethics

1:59:57 PM
I agree Donut. Has anyone ever though of asking Keiran if he'd be prepared to be interviewed by Chockstone. The topics would have to be kept serious - things such as Goats and Velcro Gloves would be off limits, but Keiran has made a serious contribution to Victorian climbing over the years.
2:12:36 PM
OK here's my two cents worth:

I'm not 100% in agreement with the not-so-nice comments directed towards Kieran.

Kieran said: "I'm not quite sure where this thread is heading in terms of wearing rings on fingers. If all you guys want to do is make senseless banter then that is fine with me."

OK, so perhaps this may be a little unwarranted. People tend to get a bit off track during the course of conversation - and let's face it - a thread is a means of conversation. Perhaps in a courtroom or an official business meeting, it is appropriate to sternly steer people back on track at times. In conversation though, where's the harm of a little straying? After all, it brought us to the interesting question regarding the dangers of wearing jewellery while climbing. Kieran clearly has direct knowledge of the dangers involved in wearing rings while climbing, and has kindly shared his wisdom. Thanks for that, Kieran!

So in summary - I'm interested in hearing about what people have to say, even if the topic has strayed a little. Kieran may be a little stern in trying to keep threads on-track, but he's got a lot of interesting stuff to share. You guys might be a bit harsh in response to Kieran's posts. I suspect that the whole reason Mike set up this site was so people could keep in touch, and share knowledge. I preferred this website before people started using it to bitch at each other. You guys are climbers... you're supposed to be happy people!

Cheers all

Donut King
4:53:05 PM

i agree with you in that this forum is more of a "conversation" than a business meeting. a conversation should be free flowing and people allowed to make light of subject matter if they so desire, and if it goes of track then we should be allowed to follow it and see were it goes.

Of course, just as in real life conversations, if one dosent like what people are talking about then one can simply withdraw from the conversation OR one can get all excited about it and complain, but what good does that do apart from others thinking you're a bit of a tool.

No one likes is the attitude eminating from posts by others saying what should and what should not be talked about in any one thread cos at the end of the day the thread means nothing.

We all have a lot of *interesting* stuff to share but lets put it all in perspective, keep the forums open and have fun as you say climbers are "supposed to be happy people."

I'm sure kiernal is a nice enough person... i guess....
5:20:09 PM
I would imagine that Kieran is a nice person. I haven't met him, though suspect I saw him working amongst the rescue crew (not a nice job) at the Arapiles accident over the Easter period. My point being, he's doing his bit for the community... and he's doing his bit for us less-experienced climbers by logging onto Chockstone regularly to provide his words of wisdom. None of us are perfect, and we all rant about something every now and then. Give the guy a break???

Hey Kieran, how about the previously-mentioned suggestion, of you perhaps doing an interview with Chockstone?

5:56:40 PM
I mostly agree with climbingjac.

I did not set out to wind Kieran up, and my bangles / bracelets comment was typed with tongue firmly in cheek, thinking that I was adding to the light hearted moment of the thread at that time.
I guess I have a bent sense of humour because I have seen a few pics on websites etc of the results of ring injuries received in working environments and its not hard to imagine the same results in a climbing accident.

I learnt from this thread (thanks Kieran) that someone did indeed strip their finger by getting caught up in, (clutching?) a wire loop in a fall.
I find this interesting as I have read elsewhere about individual/s going to the extremes of mentally preparing for solo (self preservation end of the spectrum) climbs (aka Jim Beyer), by envisaging the (worst case) scenario/s and pre developing a strategy to cope. He put this into practise once, by pivoting in the air whilst falling and grabbing pro as he fell past averting a disasterous outcome.
This kind of thing can work but I doubt the practice is to be recommended (clutching pro that is).

Personally I take my wedding ring off (and my watch) while I climb because I am aware of the hazards, plus I dont want to damage those items either!

I have also experimented with neoprene 'weight-lifters' gloves worn in reverse, ie on the backs of the hands, to mitigate the gobies induced by Buffalo granite. The results were mixed. They worked OK to a point but were no good in too many situations. The chief drawback was that any sweat under them caused them to slip/roll making greasing out of the crack more of a certainty!

Royal Robbins once said to Joe Brown that you could tell an experienced crack climber by the state of their hands. Joe who had been struggling replies with words to the effect of 'plenty of scars eh'. Royals reply was 'no, none'!

Since reading this I now try not to use tape as often as I can, and instead try to perfect my technique. For something particularly gnarly though I will still tape up.
Neil Monteith summed it up earlier this thread by saying they will help in endurance cracks by being easier on the hands but you wont improve your grades.
10:12:06 PM
OK, so I'm an object of fun on the Chockstone web-site. Big deal - there are more important things in life.
I have been asked to give an interview to Chockstone and I have agreed but postponed the interview, not for anything to do with Chockstone but a couple of severe illnesses in my family have made it a bit hard to contemplate.
I find the amount of vitriol directed at me quite outlandish. I make comments on what people say, sometimes positive, sometimes negative. Then I get personal attacks for my negative comments.
Are we playing by two standards here?
Last thing, with the digit chopped by a wire. It's obviously not common knowledge though it deserves to be lauded as an exemplar of self-rescue.
My friend was approaching the "gledhill bivvy" above the first roof on Ozy Direct when a piece popped. What we guess is that, during the fall, the thumb on the left hand caught in the loop of a wire and was effectively "cheese-wired". The thumb was left hanging from part of a tendon and a blood vessel.
My friend was then in danger of passing out from shock. Their partner, who was a very experienced alpinist, managed the descent to the ground and the walk out the south side track. By the time they reached the top the ambulance helicopter was there.
My friend was undergoing micro-surgery at St Vincents in Melbourne 8 hours after the accident. If at any time in those eight hours my friend had stopped or fainted, the thumb would have been lost.
Bloody amazing! I don't know that I would have done as well.
I'm not identifying the people involved because they have not made the story public. If you know them, please don't identify them on these pages. Please preserve their privacy.
I don't expect people to agree with my comments but I really object to people who tell me that my opinions aren't wanted.
10:19:04 PM
My apologies for having diverted this thread with ring questions. Having never seen a pair of crack gloves I wondered if they negated the need to remove my wedding ring. The removal is very difficult due to weight difference at 42 yrs to what it was at 22 years. The answer seems unanimous & have chilled and lubricated finger to remove ring, my beloved states she understands, and dedication to climbing despite the late introduction has been demonstrated. Lets all now be nice.

Donut King
11:01:48 PM
On 25/06/2003 A5iswhereitsat wrote:
>I mostly agree with climbingjac.
>I did not set out to wind Kieran up, and my bangles / bracelets comment
>was typed with tongue firmly in cheek, thinking that I was adding to the
>light hearted moment of the thread at that time.

there we go then, no harm was ment at all.....who would have thought....a light harted moment in these down to the business of talking about climbing eh?

Donut King
11:18:59 PM
On 25/06/2003 climbingjac wrote:
>I would imagine that Kieran is a nice person. I haven't met him, though
>suspect I saw him working amongst the rescue crew (not a nice job) at the
>Arapiles accident over the Easter period.
>My point being, he's doing his
>bit for the community...

good on him, thanks K-man, its good to see people acting in such an unselfish manner (no...i really mean it!)

> we all rant about something every now and

thats exactly what we do here, rant and rave, take this thread for example, goes all over the place , no forum police to say this is in and that out, i bet some people found out that superglue can be used for small flappers and that if you try to jam a crack with your wedding ring finger and the rings still on , perhaps even using the ring for "aid", and you strip your finger well then you cant say you didnt know.

Kids, dont jam your rings in cracks. <---- H U M O U R

As you said " none of us are perfect".....thank goodnes for that eh?

9:42:52 AM
On 25/06/2003 kieranl wrote:
>I'm not identifying the people involved because they have not made the
>story public. If you know them, please don't identify them on these pages.
>Please preserve their privacy.

I know the people you mean... The injured person, as you mentioned, was climbing with someone who at the time was probably the most experienced high-alpine climber in Oz. I don't know that there would have been many other people in Australia, let alone at Buffalo who were capable of getting an injured person on the verge of going into shock off the mountain so quickly. Truly amazing stuff, particularly when you consider that the anonymous alpinist is about the most humble and self-effacing guy you could ever meet.

Oddly enough, that incident is largely responsible for me not wearing any rings when I climb. ;-)

>I don't expect people to agree with my comments but I really object to
>people who tell me that my opinions aren't wanted.

I don't think anyone here would seriously question the value of your opinions. It's the way you deliver them sometimes. Chockstone should be the online equivalent of sitting around a campfire in the Grampians with friends and a few beers. Before hitting the 'reply' button, we should all ask 'would I be saying this if I was sitting face-to-face with these people'.

10:49:52 AM
Good point, Tim

12:22:37 PM
I'm really careful now about taking off watches and rings etc before climbing - I'll never forget seeing that picture that was floating around of the stripped finger on some US climbing site. Yuck. I've trashed the glass on a couple of watches from stuffing my arm into a crack.

I slipped near the top of a climb on Mt Rosea a few years back and ended up basically hanging in space from the second joint on one thumb. Fortunately I was able to fairly quickly get my feet established on the rock again and then able to get myself extricated from the crack. We were laughing about it at the time, but if I'd been unable to get my feet back on I think I would have been in real trouble. As it was, lots of bruising and a very fat sore thumb for a while but no permanent damage. I don't think crack climbing gloves would have helped in that instance though!
mikl law
1:15:58 PM
I borrowed Baxter's crack gloves once and there were definately worth a grade or two in most circumstances but the crack has to be wide enuff to get the hand + glove in (marginal in thin hand cracks). The lack of pain means jambs feel easier AND the greater friction of the stealth rubber on the back means you only need about 70% the force to hang the same jam. Crack gloves and stiff boots might even make jambing fun.

I know of one guy who degloved a finger with a wedding ring, he was getting cat food out of a shelf off a step ladder, stepped down and ring hooked (unbelievably) the edge of the shelf.
Also, I degloved a finger racing in a hydraulic ram, and the physio I had (for other broken bones) was asking about how it was healing up etc etc. The next week when i turned up she was in a pretty impressive cast, she'd hooked her wedding ring on a rivet in a water slide and torn finger and a yard of tendon out. Yuck.
Steve Howden got pumped and was facing a groundfall and then had an earing caught in a poor RP that he couldn't remove. One torn earlobe and a little groundfall !

Keiran, they put the boot into me just because I'm old too. Don't worry, they'll get old or they'll die, and either way we'll have the last laugh.

2:34:18 PM
On 26/06/2003 tmarsh wrote:
>I don't think anyone here would seriously question the value of your opinions.
>It's the way you deliver them sometimes. Chockstone should be the online
>equivalent of sitting around a campfire in the Grampians with friends and
>a few beers. Before hitting the 'reply' button, we should all ask 'would
>I be saying this if I was sitting face-to-face with these people'.

Exactly... could someone pass a beer from the esky?

2:39:22 PM
Hey Donut King are reading the same threads as me? You accuse Kieran of saying "This group having an 'elitist attitude'" and what he wrote is "Another problem I have is that I am being told that if I don't like it then I should bugger off! That's an elitist attitude."

We seem to have translated "attitude" to "group" don't we? My interpretation of the sentences would be that it is the people who tell Kieran to bugger off that are being accused of having an elitist attitude, not the group.

But then again, maybe I'm too old to fully appreciate the subtle intricacies and nuances of today's modern Austral/Amercanised - English language.

3:59:41 PM
On 25/06/2003 kieranl wrote:
>I don't expect people to agree with my comments but I really object to
>people who tell me that my opinions aren't wanted.

I think that one of the limitations with on-line forums, is that we can't hear tone, inflection, see expressions, body language, etc - so sometimes the meaning or intent of someone's words is misunderstood. Another issue is that given a large enough group of people, statistically you'll eventually offend someone no matter how diplomatic you try to remain.

Kieran has a huge amount of climbing experience, vastly more than my own, which I totally respect. For my part, I welcome his input, and encourage him to continue posting. I would also like to encourage others to post, even if you've never climbed at all, and are but interested in trying. The point is, that everyone is more than welcome. The mixture of people in a group (culture), is often what makes it rewarding.

As forum moderator, I've (apart from some SPAM), only deleted one post so far of the 3400 odd. I think this is a very good ratio. I know over on rec.climbing people are sometimes afraid to express an opinion, or post a silly question for fear of judgment. This forum belongs to all readers and contributors. I hope no one feels excluded. Tim said it best, imagine the camp fire, and good friends. All posts are welcome. :-)

Don't look to me for guidelines (other than these), this forum belongs to everyone. I personally don't mind if a thread gets a bit off topic. Sometimes it can be helpful to start a fresh topic, for people subsequently searching for specific information. It's up to you.

Donut King
5:36:52 PM

No I didnt *accuse* Kieran of saying "This group having an 'elitist attitude'".

Those were my words, not Kierans or anyone elses. my post is not misleading as to who-said-what.

Perhaps my wording should have been more specific to say that I find it amusing that anyone in this group would have an elitesist attitude simply by suggesting to another that if they dont find the conversation to their liking then they have the choice of not participating. i would say they have a democratic attitude......

>We seem to have translated "attitude" to "group" don't we?

No, you mean that *I* have translated, so use the word "You", you are not referening to yourself are you? If you mean to direct a question to me then please do so, the roayl "we" is rather condescending in this construction (imho of course!), but then thats the way it was most likely intended

I think tmarsh summed it all up quite nicely.

Mikelaw said ..."they put the boot into me just because I'm old too." but i doubt very much that it would be age alone which would cause this. Hell I dont even know how old youse guys are and it dosent mean shit to me either, you either act friendly and enjoy the banter or you act like a tool and bitch.....oh shit thats me!!!

enjoy the rest of the show
11:03:13 PM
I don't know most of you guys so a friendly "round the camp-fire" situation isn't possible.
Also, I am passionate about climbing and things related to it. I'm not ashamed of that but it does mean that have strong opinions on a lot of climbing issues and I'm prepared to express those opinions.
I don't mind if people disagree with my opinions : it's actually a good thing. I do object to people attacking me rather than responding to my opinions.
I'm a bit bemused that I've become the subject of the thread for the moment.
Once upon a time (a couple of decades ago) I wanted people to like me. I eventually discovered that people liked me if they liked me, if they didn't they didn't, and I couldn't do anything to change that.
If my style alienates people, I'll try, but I'm stuck with myself.
People seem too willing to equate criticism with abuse. So what if I post because I don't like the way a thread is going. Big deal! If you disagree with me, you say so.

12:49:15 PM
Well said tim marsh.
Kirean, your opinions are very welcome, just be carefull how you phrase things, you can still show your passion without getting agressive..... i would be espesialy interested in hearing from you on the new topic regarding rescue techniques as i know your knowledge of this topic is extensive...

I will be at araps on saturday night until friday, feel free to come and sit around the campfire anytime... share a beer and some laughs. The offer is there.


3:39:08 PM
On 12/06/2003 mrsnuffy wrote:
>OK, you guys have relieved my conscience. I'm off to get me a pair of 'gecko
So how did they go?
(feedback please) ...

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There are 71 messages in this topic.


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