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c3 vs master cams

Estey

8-Feb-2011
5:22:53 PM

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>f---ing northern Tassie, things ain't right down there!

I quite like Northern Tassie. I'd move there if my wife would let me. I don't think it would make me climb any harder though.

tas alex

8-Feb-2011
9:31:30 PM

I could show you plenty of routes that only take cams like that.
I actually couldn't give a fuch about this thread or your ridiculous analogies, as plenty of people have said through experience, cams will work like this! I simply said aliens/masters hold up to it better.
For only 35, you sure are one grumpy old bastard!

One day Hero

9-Feb-2011
8:16:01 AM

On 8/02/2011 tas alex wrote:
>I could show you plenty of routes that only take cams like that.

Name and photo, or you're talking with your bunghole

>I actually couldn't give a fuch about this thread or your ridiculous analogies,

My ridiculous analogy is a very simple explaination of what is going on.........I do wonder when supposedly intelligent people can't recognise a simple mechanical problem. I reckon Patto is going to go away, draw some nerdy diagrams, crunch some numbers, then come back on here with his 'discovery' that sideways cams are bad.

>as plenty of people have said through experience, cams will work like this!

Yeah...Neil reckons its ace!

>I simply said aliens/masters hold up to it better.

And I said incorrecto! At least designs like powercams won't snap in two, they'll probably slide out though..........mastercams are way prone to end up in two bits when misplaced as you suggest.

>For only 35, you sure are one grumpy old bastard!

Yeah, wait till your fingers are fuching out, and all your good climbing partners are doing 'baby shit'...............see how chirpy you are then, ya little smartarse!

bones

9-Feb-2011
9:01:22 AM

does this mean that the cams that Ollie places on kachoong in his helmut cam ascent would both snap if he jumped off above the lip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7kB2ZFjE5o

patto

9-Feb-2011
9:04:04 AM

On 9/02/2011 One day Hero wrote:
>
>And I said incorrecto! At least designs like powercams won't snap in two,
>they'll probably slide out though..........mastercams are way prone to
>end up in two bits when misplaced as you suggest.
>

This is contrary to popular opinion. It is generally believed that double stemmed cams are worse in such positions because of the torque on the placement. Whereas you are suggesting that single stems will be worse because of cam structural failure.

I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong though.

One day Hero

9-Feb-2011
9:28:28 AM

On 8/02/2011 will b wrote:
>Two climbers from southern Tassie who have both climbed 28 on gear (placed
>on lead), actually...
>
>
Wow, really?! I never woulda said bad things to em if I knew they were top level climberz like that! If they can climb 28s, they must know heaps about like.......forces, and.............stuff. I can't think of a single tasmanian who ever climbed 28 and wasn't rooly smart!

So, what are the names of some of the gr 28 cracks which these hardhitters have onsighted?

One day Hero

9-Feb-2011
9:48:06 AM

On 9/02/2011 patto wrote:
>
>This is contrary to popular opinion. It is generally believed that double
>stemmed cams are worse in such positions because of the torque on the placement.
> Whereas you are suggesting that single stems will be worse because of
>cam structural failure.
>
>I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong though.

As you add bodyweight to the piece, the stem will just bend to 90degrees at the closest point to the head where it is still flexible........doesn't really matter how stiff the stem is, a bit of thin wire rope isn't very stiff with 80kgs bending it down.

Any stem - axle connection which has brazing/swaging is going to be subjected to forces which will act to peel the connection open and lever the base of the 'tubey thing' off the axles.

The further this rigid 'tubey thing'/braze protrudes from the axles, the more it will get torn a newie. I don't know what Camalots do with their axle/stem connection these days, mine (#2 and #3) have the stem penetrate through the head then swage on the top side. It means you can pull the stem any which way in relation to the head, and it will still be strong.........

.........but you'll still get messy shit happening when you load them trapped sideways. I destroyed my first blue camalot by aiding on this type of placement. Bodyweight only, 2 of the lobes folded over sideways.......bit of a surprise.

One day Hero

9-Feb-2011
9:51:59 AM

Anyway, this shit needs diagrams (and videoed pull-tests).

Cams with stem flexiness all the way to bombproof axle-junctions pretty much turn into nuts (you're not pulling the cam in the direction which expands the lobes any more)

Cams with sticking out swages/brazes turn into 2 piece cams


ajfclark

9-Feb-2011
10:01:48 AM

Totem cams say they shouldn't be used to protect against falls in 2 lobe placements, but I wonder if getting two lobes in and loaded cleanly would work better than 4 with the head torqued badly.

Interestingly they are the most flexible stemmed cams I've ever played with and their instructions also explicitly state that placing them with the stem straight out is bad.


nmonteith

9-Feb-2011
10:32:58 AM

On 9/02/2011 bones wrote:
>does this mean that the cams that Ollie places on kachoong in his helmut
>cam ascent would both snap if he jumped off above the lip
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7kB2ZFjE5o

No, those cam placements look fine. The reason is the whole stem sits across the horizontal flat of the rock - and the 90 degree bend happens at the carabiner end. Thus the force on the cams is actually a normal force. The problem cams are ones that the 90 degree bend happens right at the cam end.

Olbert

9-Feb-2011
12:44:57 PM

On 9/02/2011 bones wrote:
>does this mean that the cams that Ollie places on kachoong in his helmut
>cam ascent would both snap if he jumped off above the lip
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7kB2ZFjE5o

I can attest a strong 'no' to that. One of our group fell off at the lip (with a roar from deep within) not that long before me. The cams were fine - as expected.

The difference is that this type of placement isnt the one we are talking about - we are talking about horazontal placements in a vertical crack.


ajfclark

9-Feb-2011
12:58:29 PM

eg discussing:

This

vs this

rather than:

This

vs this

bones

9-Feb-2011
12:58:42 PM

On 9/02/2011 Olbert wrote:
. The cams were
>fine - as expected.
>
>The difference is that this type of placement isnt the one we are talking
>about - we are talking about horazontal placements in a vertical crack.

I'd assumed so (I think I used the same placements on Kachoong) but I couldn't tell the difference from a skim of the physics arguments people were using until I read Neil's explanation.

widewetandslippery

9-Feb-2011
1:02:03 PM

You fellas make me feel dumb. When I'm pumped I plug em in and hope for the bloody best.


sliamese

9-Feb-2011
1:48:05 PM

Funny stuff! Seem to have hit a nerve ODH? Were you beaten up once as a small child by a cam placed like this? Hehe how olds stevie haston now? Is it an age thing, or that you never were very motivated. Hmmm

So according to that other diagram you'll instantly snap a cam if it placed in a horizontal crack too? I call BS on that pic too. Sure not ideal but fine in real life applications.

Just chill man. Like we said, cams dont hold up well when placed as mentioned. But they WILL hold most of the time! Either way they have more holding power than when theyre racked on your harness...

As for useful info, c3s can get extra purchase in (very rare) placements, where the solid metal stem that holds the lobes can act almost like a stopper when placed horizontally. That logic(hard to grasp for some) stems from how they are placed in the copious pin-scars of yosemite, sometime sticking straight out! :O


nmonteith

9-Feb-2011
1:51:34 PM

On 9/02/2011 sliamese wrote:
>placed in the copious pin-scars of yosemite, sometime sticking
>straight out! :O

I still have nightmares about placements in those crappy scars. The most bomber thing to hold in those was hammering in a cam hook!

tas alex

9-Feb-2011
2:14:55 PM

>Yeah, wait till your fingers are fuching out, and all your good climbing
>partners are doing 'baby shit'...............see how chirpy you are then,
>ya little smartarse!

wow, these all seem to be valid reasons for not climbing, and all are completely out of your control (not!). If you were motivated, you'd be out climbing, not some has-been old git making excuses and abusing people on internet forums.

One Day Hero

11-Feb-2011
9:08:42 PM

Is there an echo in here?........or has Sliamese just signed up tas alex as his little sub-man in the cult of excess motivation? If you're gonna go down that road, alex, you'll have to;

get more internally conflictled

do some serious philosophizing about "the nature of life, and how everything relates to climbing"

and............start listening exclusively to Mumford and Sons!

Anyway, if I'm such an unmotivated old coot, how come I've done more meters of climbing in the last 48hrs than anyone else on this site?


Miguel75

11-Feb-2011
9:33:33 PM

On 11/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Anyway, if I'm such an unmotivated old coot, how come I've done more meters
>of climbing in the last 48hrs than anyone else on this site?

Ohh, a challenge. How many meters have you banged out in the last 48 hours ODH??

One Day Hero

11-Feb-2011
9:34:02 PM

On 9/02/2011 sliamese wrote:
>
>So according to that other diagram you'll instantly snap a cam if it placed
>in a horizontal crack too? I call BS on that pic too. Sure not ideal but
>fine in real life applications.

If you actually look at the diagrams, the point they are making is that loading the stem over a round edge is fine, while loading over a sharp edge is liable to f--- the cam or maybe cut the cable. I reckon that placing cams like this is ok (less than ideal) but 2 orders of magnitude better than stupid trapped placements in vertical cracks.
>
>Just chill man. Like we said, cams dont hold up well when placed as mentioned.
>But they WILL hold most of the time! Either way they have more holding
>power than when theyre racked on your harness...

See, I don't reckon they will hold most of the time, they will hold some of the time.....but you'll also slap them in like that without pausing to notice the bomber #2 rp placement just above it, which would almost certainly be a stronger and more reliable piece!
>
>As for useful info, c3s can get extra purchase in (very rare) placements,
>where the solid metal stem that holds the lobes can act almost like a stopper
>when placed horizontally. That logic(hard to grasp for some) stems from
>how they are placed in the copious pin-scars of yosemite, sometime sticking
>straight out! :O

If it can act as a stopper, it means the bottom of the scar would probably take a brass offset........once again, that nut would most likely be better gear than the shitty cam!

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