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c3 vs master cams


IdratherbeclimbingM9

7-Feb-2011
9:28:30 PM

On 6/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>And Rod, i'd be impressed to see you get nuts of any sort into most of
>the placements I put my micro cams in! Parallel cracks are just cruddy
>to get nuts in when you can just bung a cam in.

Fair enough, though if you are referring to Araps, then in my opinion you are generally spoilt for choice when it comes to protection opportunities there!

tas alex wrote;
>I know it's not optimal, but for hard thin cracks climbing free (not wiggling in some bullshit RPs while standing in aiders) then it's a good option. If you think cams don't work this way, why would aliens be so popular??

I am sure Henry Barber would agree* with you...
Heh, heh, heh.

(*Tongue firmly in cheek!).

tas alex

7-Feb-2011
9:35:14 PM

On 7/02/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 6/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>And Rod, i'd be impressed to see you get nuts of any sort into most of
>>the placements I put my micro cams in! Parallel cracks are just cruddy
>>to get nuts in when you can just bung a cam in.
>
>Fair enough, though if you are referring to Araps, then in my opinion
>you are generally spoilt for choice when it comes to protection opportunities
>there!
>
>
>
>
>tas alex wrote;
>>I know it's not optimal, but for hard thin cracks climbing free (not
>wiggling in some bullshit RPs while standing in aiders) then it's a good
>option. If you think cams don't work this way, why would aliens be so popular??
>
>I am sure Henry Barber would agree* with you...
>Heh, heh, heh.

(*Tongue firmly in cheek!).

Ignorance is bliss

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
10:29:12 AM

On 7/02/2011 sliamese wrote:
>It all comes back to what they're used for. Your wrong alex, if you want
>to climb the Bard, not fall, and never really push the gear.
>
>But if you want to push your limit on trad routes, you'll be placing a
>load of cams like that, and falling on them. Be interesting to see someone
>strung out, pumped senseless, having a quick flick through the instruction
>book.
>
This is farking astounding! No wonder so many people get hurt trad climbing, they think gear can perform miracles. Maybe you can also place your cams upside down, with a tieoff around the axle? Fuching retards!

"Oooh, I'm Tasmanian, I'm so hardcore, I climb all the hard cracks......no one on the mainland has ever climbed anything hard without aiding it, mainlanders aid climb anything over grade 12"

Name me one fuching route where the only way to protect it is by stupid sticking out horizontal cams? Bullshit! The only reason you think you have to do it is cause you're too dumb to know better.

rightarmbad

8-Feb-2011
10:37:56 AM

I so love ODH, he saves me making a ton of posts.

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
10:41:43 AM

On 7/02/2011 patto wrote: spunta!
>

>
Good, I'm glad that you found that photo, now please link the text that was with it too........in fact, if you're keen, I dare you to write to W.C. and ask them about whipping on placements like that!

Can some physics type draw the ugly diagram with the forces involved in this sort of placement?

1. the mildly horrific version for Zero's, metolius powercams, some camalots, and othercams which thread the cable through the axle........ooh look mum, no more camming action

and

2. the super nasty version with friends/mastercams/aliens............watch that swage peel open!

.......................or do I have to draw the fat fucher in tights again?

This shit is waaaaay scarier than bolt plates with skinny biners!

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
10:45:28 AM

Hey Neil, can you post that photo of your aid-exploded friend here so that I can explain how it happened?

patto

8-Feb-2011
10:48:39 AM

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 7/02/2011 sliamese wrote:
>>It all comes back to what they're used for. Your wrong alex, if you want
>>to climb the Bard, not fall, and never really push the gear.
>>
>>But if you want to push your limit on trad routes, you'll be placing
>a
>>load of cams like that, and falling on them. Be interesting to see someone
>>strung out, pumped senseless, having a quick flick through the instruction
>>book.
>>
>This is farking astounding! No wonder so many people get hurt trad climbing,
>they think gear can perform miracles. Maybe you can also place your cams
>upside down, with a tieoff around the axle? Fuching retards!
>
>"Oooh, I'm Tasmanian, I'm so hardcore, I climb all the hard cracks......no
>one on the mainland has ever climbed anything hard without aiding it, mainlanders
>aid climb anything over grade 12"
>
>Name me one fuching route where the only way to protect it is by stupid
>sticking out horizontal cams? Bullshit! The only reason you think you have
>to do it is cause you're too dumb to know better.

Whats with the aggressive and insulting tone of late ODH? Or have you always been like that? Sure chockstone has always been a feisty place of debate but no need to be an ignorant ass about it.

Many cams can be securely placed in a stem horizontal position. Its not about gear performing miracles it is about what is plainly possible. As far as placing cams upside down, yep done that too and slung them long.

Crack vertical/stem horizontal placements are not ideal but will happily hold if placed appropriately. They have been known to break LinkCams though which should be obvious to anybody that considers it. Those hinges aren't supposed to take load.

patto

8-Feb-2011
10:56:37 AM

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Good, I'm glad that you found that photo, now please link the text that
>was with it too........in fact, if you're keen, I dare you to write to
>W.C. and ask them about whipping on placements like that!

No way on earth would I want to whip on that. The green is only rated to 4.5kN at the best of times. However big fat 14kN pieces I would happily fall on when shoved in a verticle pocket with the stem horizontal. As I have said I would happily pulltest one of my cams.


nmonteith

8-Feb-2011
10:58:56 AM

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Hey Neil, can you post that photo of your aid-exploded friend here so that
>I can explain how it happened?

Why it's not a good idea to place cams in vertical placements sticking out horizontally.

I've broken two cams doing this.

patto

8-Feb-2011
11:15:43 AM

Ouch thats a broken cam!

Nobody is arguing they are ideal placements but you can certainly get them to hold a fall. Others here have already said as much. As I have said I will happily test a cam when I get the opportunity.


nmonteith

8-Feb-2011
11:24:44 AM

You need to be very careful when placing and falling on cams like this - because the cable may not immediately snap but will be badly damaged. So, if you do this again and again the cam cable may break in a normal placement. I broke one of these by lightly flexing it in my hand one day after wondering if the cam was being damaged in these type of falls. I hardly bent it at all and it snapped in half very easily. I was rather scared after this happened as the cam itself still looked ok - but obviously the metal cable had been flexed so often that it was incredibly weak.


nmonteith

8-Feb-2011
11:31:42 AM

p.s. many cams can hold solidly with only 2 out of the 4 cams in the rock. This is actually much stronger as it allows the cams to be facing the direction of fall in a shallow placement.

patto

8-Feb-2011
11:32:04 AM

Something to consider.... Thanks for your insight Neil. (and for the photo)

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
12:12:30 PM

On 8/02/2011 patto wrote:
>
>Whats with the aggressive and insulting tone of late ODH? Or have you
>always been like that?

Yes, always.......its just that you don't notice it as much until you're the one copping it. Take Dr Chris for example, he hates my guts when I'm on about carrots and overgrading, cause he loves rings and soft ticks.........but as soon as I got stuck into the christians, suddenly I became "enjoyable to read"

Now, to Neil's cam. See how the cable is all gone? The little tubey thing (swage) which the cable plugs into at the head end, has busted off near the axle.

You can model the forces on this tubey thing with a 30cm piece of 20mm copper pipe.

Step 1) Take one end in each hand

Step 2) Stretch the copper pipe like hot mozzarella by moving your hands directly away from each other..........any luck? This is how your cam gets loaded when the stem is able to rotate into line with the pull.

Step 3) Now, fold the pipe in half with the action you'd use to snap a pencil......uh-oh, broken cam. This is what you're doing to that tubey thing if you place your cam as in Neil's photo.........and what will happen (somewhere between bodyweight and a little-bitsy fall) is what has happened in the photo.

Why do you need photographic evidence for things which are so easy to understand?

patto

8-Feb-2011
12:34:59 PM

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 8/02/2011 patto wrote:
>>
>>Whats with the aggressive and insulting tone of late ODH? Or have you
>>always been like that?
>
>Yes, always.......its just that you don't notice it as much until you're
>the one copping it.

Sorry I didn't realise I was tas alex. I was more complaining about you being an ass towards him.

On 8/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Why do you need photographic evidence for things which are so easy to
>understand?

I don't need photos or your mozzarella arguments to understand the forces. As I have said I will donate a cam for testing. I believe some tests have been done in the past i'll try to dig them up.

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
12:47:08 PM

On 8/02/2011 patto wrote:
> As
>far as placing cams upside down, yep done that too and slung them long.
>
Ah, this just gets better and better!

"Uhhhh, I plathed da cam upside-down cuz thith parthicular plathment iz motht thecure in that orienthation, uh-huh........but I wuz wurried bout rope-drag acthiently fripping it the right way up, and thath woulda made it dangerouth. Tho I puth a rooly long thling on, cuz thlings fix cams good.......maketh evrything thweet........uh-huh"

f---ing northern Tassie, things ain't right down there!

patto

8-Feb-2011
12:55:48 PM

Riiiiigggghhhhht......

*backs away from thread slowly*

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
1:07:57 PM

Nah, just taking the piss patto, I know you're a physicsy type. You gotta see how the top of that swage will shit itself under tension where it makes a T-intersection with the shaft.......there's so little metal and tons of leverage.

One Day Hero

8-Feb-2011
1:24:39 PM

On 8/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>
>Why it's not a good idea to place cams in vertical placements sticking
>out horizontally.
>

>I've broken two cams doing this.
>
Ta Neil, I love that photo! Am now envisioning Sliamese and Tas Alex cranking up a 50m pitch of that crack...........

The Big Wank is On - gr33, 50m

pretty sustained crack climbing by Northern Tasmanian standards, totally impossible for mainlanders. Climb the 15mm wide, 10mm deep, dripping wet crack by tourqing your 6th fingers with both hands, pausing every 10m or so to place a horizontally-sticking-out-cam which is the only possible means of protection (don't worry, they're designed to work like that). At the top, belay off a sideways hex half in a pocket, an upside-down wire with a long sling for safety, two stacked ballnuts, and a tied of fairy.......and any other make-believe protection you can find.

FA- two proper crack climbers from northern tassie

will b

8-Feb-2011
4:24:19 PM

Two climbers from southern Tassie who have both climbed 28 on gear (placed on lead), actually...

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