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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 34
Author
a small study of unclipping from keyhole hangers
mikllaw
16-Jan-2011
1:27:53 PM
Hi, After the floods of spray about the County I decided to try a few bolt/hanger/bracket combinations out, altho it is much more productive to theorize.
I only had 4 brackets (lost the rest to testing, yet another reason to retrobolt Hotel cal), a std RP hanger, a bent RP hanger, a std PFH, and a bent PFH hanger:-
Which my beautiful assistant will now show....

I had a metric stainless bolt (16.8mm) with the points ground off so you can get most brackets on them, a standard carrot (head 15.8 mm across flats), and an imperial stainless bolt (14.3mm).


I had these in a board so I could have them sticking out varying amounts, 5mm, 10mm, or 20 mm (the latter would be rare for glue-ins).Into these I clipped a fat screwgate, an old kong bent rod biner (round cross section), a Petzl spirit, an DMM Blaze, and also a wiregate.







The bottom line, We all knew that wiregates were sudden death, but it turns out that the Petzl Spirits are too, mostly due their extreme slenderness near the nose of the gate, half that of any other biner I've seen:-

Minimum thickness
Screwgate 12mm
Kong rod 10.4mm
Petzl Spirit 3.6mm
DMM Blaze 6.6mm
wiregate 2.4 mm

Any wiregate and the Spirits came off all bracket/bolt combinations. If a Spirit could rotate and the nose enter the bracket hole, then the head of the bolt could sneak through. (Std Carrot sticking out 5mm with PHF bent hanger)


Stickout- carrots in udersized holes often stick out alarmingly, 5 and 10 mm of stick were similar, but 20mm allowed average modern sport biners to come out of some hangers also.Either double biner these, use a fat biner, or throw on a wire also.

Head size:- The std carrot and "17mm" metric stainless were pretty good. The Imperial small stainless bolt allowed all except the fat screwgate to come off if it stuckout 20mm, and was less secure anyway. These just shouldn't be placed.
Here's are the metric (L) and imperial (R) stainless bolts compared.


More pix and bigger result tables at the SRC lab
http://routes.sydneyrockies.org.au/display/thelab/Keyhole+hangers+unclipping+from+carrots

Miguel75
16-Jan-2011
3:44:50 PM
Thanks for taking time to test, and post this info Mike. Much appreciated..

Superstu
16-Jan-2011
7:26:06 PM
Awesome work mikl, thanks.

So these are the petzl spirits? I guess any brand with a narrow nose is a prob, I'll go measure up my rack of assorted biners...


Superstu
16-Jan-2011
9:01:42 PM
petzl spirit circa 2005 3.32mm
dmm aero circa 2008 5.51mm
faders "p.dru" pre 2000 5.42mm
chouinard semi oval circa 80's 5.33mm (was that before biner designs got funky marketing names??)
wild country wide & heavy circa 90's 6.64mm
mikllaw
17-Jan-2011
7:32:44 AM
Yes, the Spirit's beautiful sweeping curves. " Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery quoted in the Chouinard clean climbing catalogue (1974?) are so minimal near the nose as to aid bolt plate removal. Still a nice biner i reckon.
grangrump
17-Jan-2011
8:07:17 AM
data!
thanks Mikl.

climbau
17-Jan-2011
8:35:10 AM
We know from previous topics that rolling the Spirit biner so the the nose faces out, and is at the bottom helps to reduce the likely hood of this happening.
What I take from all this, is that despite sinking bits of steel (using engineering principles) into the rock, and despite engineering fit-for-purpose keyhole hangers, there is still room for error. We have anecdotal(?) evidence suggesting the same risks apply to FH's and Rings. I don't think I have heard of this happening with U's? Maybe there is no perfect solution as far as an engineered solution goes (except maybe fixed swaged SS quickdraws). But I was always taught that climbing is about systems, and the more disciplined you are about following proper safety procedure (use what ever method you like as long as it suits the situation) you will minimise the inherit risks of climbing. There will always be the "human Factor" and the low percentage occurrences IMHO, but hopefully if one piece fails there will be another piece not far away to make things not so messy.

Superstu
17-Jan-2011
5:31:36 PM
This pic was most useful to understand why wire gates on carrots are bad.

One Day Hero
17-Jan-2011
9:43:59 PM
On 17/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>This pic was most useful to understand why wire gates on carrots are bad.

Do you really need a picture to know not to use wiregates on carrots?!? C'mon, can't people think through this stuff for themselves? Its not a complicated machine, 3 parts.....none of them are proper moving parts. Get out there, find a belay bolt and try it yourself with your own biners.............rather than expecting Mike to wipe your arse for you!
egosan
17-Jan-2011
9:52:44 PM
On 17/01/2011 One Day Hero wrote:

>Do you really need a picture to know not to use wiregates on carrots?!?
>C'mon, can't people think through this stuff for themselves? Its not complicated
>machine, 3 parts.....none of them are proper moving parts. Get out there,
>find a belay bolt and try it yourself with your own biners.............rather
>than expecting Mike to wipe your arse for you!

Come on, ODH, have a little sympathy for our art-brained brothers and sisters with their cute little helmets askew.

Maybe they can understand if we use Barbi Dolls to explain.
mikllaw
17-Jan-2011
11:52:16 PM
On 17/01/2011 climbau wrote:
>We know from previous topics that rolling the Spirit biner so the the nose
>faces out, and is at the bottom helps to reduce the likely hood of this
>happening.

--Not much, both ends near the gate are slim

>there is still room for error.

-- Yes

>We have anecdotal(?) evidence
>suggesting the same risks apply to FH's and Rings. I don't think I have
>heard of this happening with U's?

--Jim Titt has a lot of info on unclipping from brackets and rings/Ubolts. Best bet is to clip away from you, and use a S/G if unclipping would be drastic
Plasticity
18-Jan-2011
5:42:07 AM
Blah blah blah, death 'biners aside, I still can't believe that noone has commented on the lobster. And: 'What has he done on grit'... Surely a seabed dwelling crustacean deserves more merit than this??
mikllaw
18-Jan-2011
7:54:55 AM
On 18/01/2011 Plasticity wrote:
>Blah blah blah, death 'biners aside, I still can't believe that noone has
>commented on the lobster. And: 'What has he done on grit'... Surely a seabed
>dwelling crustacean deserves more merit than this??

--John J. O'Brien said "DUr, Mikl, you test bolt plates with Krabs not lobsters."

Superstu
18-Jan-2011
8:04:34 AM
Rather be a left brained bumbly with a clean arse than a one day hero all year round dickhead.

climbau
18-Jan-2011
8:40:46 AM
On 17/01/2011 mikllaw wrote:
>On 17/01/2011 climbau wrote:
>>We know from previous topics that rolling the Spirit biner so the the
>nose
>>faces out, and is at the bottom helps to reduce the likely hood of this
>>happening.
>
>--Not much, both ends near the gate are slim

Agreed, there is only 2mm difference, but it does reduce the chances.

>
>>there is still room for error.
>
>-- Yes
>
>>We have anecdotal(?) evidence
>>suggesting the same risks apply to FH's and Rings. I don't think I have
>>heard of this happening with U's?
>
>--Jim Titt has a lot of info on unclipping from brackets and rings/Ubolts.
>Best bet is to clip away from you, and use a S/G if unclipping would be
>drastic

Completely agree.


Thanks for the testing that you do Mikl. Whilst much of it I find to be things I have already learnt, thought about, or even take for commonsense I still find it interesting and there is always more to learn and discuss. Plus, commonsense ain't always that common.
grangrump
18-Jan-2011
10:17:43 AM
On 17/01/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>Do you really need a picture to know not to use wiregates on carrots?!?
>C'mon, can't people think through this stuff for themselves? Its not a
>complicated machine, 3 parts.....none of them are proper moving parts.
>Get out there, find a belay bolt and try it yourself with your own biners.............rath
>r than expecting Mike to wipe your arse for you!

Given the variety of bolt head diameters, bracket dimensions/geometry and krab dimensions in use, I think it is worth posting some information. It will make some people think, and maybe play with their own gear.
grangrump
18-Jan-2011
10:19:39 AM
On 18/01/2011 Plasticity wrote:
>Blah blah blah, death 'biners aside, I still can't believe that noone has
>commented on the lobster.

Nup. Australian, particularly Victorian usage is crayfish.
(the export packaging was renamed to stop the poor Yanks confusion with their 'crawfish')
One Day Hero
18-Jan-2011
12:38:48 PM
On 18/01/2011 superstu wrote:
>Rather be a left brained bumbly with a clean arse than a one day hero all
>year round dickhead.

If you don't have the brains to test your own biner and hanger combination with the bolts you're about to rely on to keep you alive, you're too stupid to be a safe climber. Try bouldering instead!
mikllaw
18-Jan-2011
12:59:34 PM
On 17/01/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>C'mon, can't people think through this stuff for themselves?

-- Well sometimes not. Most people have done some smart stuff and have something really interesting to say, and have probably done something really dumb too. I think I've done more dumb than smart, but survived somehow.

Rather than rely on hearsay, I thought I'd do some limited testing. It's all info.
kieranl
18-Jan-2011
1:17:09 PM
Thanks Mikl.
It does make it clear that carrots requiring removable hangers have some safety issues that bolts without some sort of fixed hanger don't. So, all other things being equal, something with a fixed or integral hanger should be used.
n.b. "All other things" include, but are not restricted to, visual impact and the likelihood of being lynched.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 34
There are 34 messages in this topic.

 

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