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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

Rave About Your Rack Please do not post retail SPAM.

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 37
Author
At the risk of a character assasination...

cruze
14-Apr-2005
1:24:42 PM
Well at the risk of a character assasination I am going to ask a stupid question:

When I see people climbing hard trad routes in pictures and in the flesh I see that the amount of gear that they carry is substantially less than I would take on to a moderate trad route. I can easily understand why. I mean that stuff is f***ing heavy!

I just wanted to ask people as a plan to onsighting (for whatever that means) a trad route that is near your limit (whatever that is) do you suss out the climb from the ground and then whittle down gear (if so what about multipitch), do you choose to take only a little and risk larger run outs or do you lug the whole thing up at the risk of the weight/bulk of your gear making some moves heaps harder???

I just want to know what attitude people take. I don't think that my rack is overly big but no matter where I go, and what type of climb I attempt I always end up setting up a belay with a selection from about half a rack (not necessarily bad(!), just seems a waste to lug it all that way in the first place).

shiltz
14-Apr-2005
2:06:09 PM
I trim to what I think I'll need for the pitch (based on the guide book description and scoping as best I can). If it is a multipitch climb then its up to the second to carry the surplus gear that might be required for the following pitches.

nmonteith
14-Apr-2005
2:45:33 PM
People doing hard trad routes have most likely been on the route previously - and thus they know the exact pieces to bring!

Rich
14-Apr-2005
2:48:27 PM
yeh usually drop off a few of the bigger or smaller things and/or less wires if its shorter.

JBM
14-Apr-2005
2:56:58 PM
I agree with Neil - most folks have scouted the route. Some to the point of actually having the pieces already on draws and in the order in which they are going to place them. (example: in the video Front Range Freaks in the trad freaks segment)

It's a different ball game all together if you are truly going for the onsight (at least in my own humble experience/ability). I sometimes end up with quite a bit of gear left over, although mostly just wires now - cams seem to be the easiest thing to cut back on.

Eduardo Slabofvic
14-Apr-2005
3:02:52 PM
Ask yourself what you would rather do, set up the belay with heaps of gear, or be forced to improvise your last few runners using what evers left, it's your choice. I err on the side of more gear, as I am a chronic nester. I think your just grappling with the fun part of on-sighting, which is not knowing what’s coming up and having to respond when it does. I enjoy this aspect of climbing more than doing practiced moves, but each to their own.

nmonteith
14-Apr-2005
3:16:36 PM
For onsights I usually scope for bomber placments from the ground - and make sure i take those vital bits of gear. - maybe even pre-racked. I then add a single set of everything else. A single set of cams and wires usually does me fine on sub 20m trad routes at Arapiles/Grampians.

LittleMac
14-Apr-2005
3:20:31 PM
Not very common for "hard routes" to be onsighted. Of the very few people I know who do so, Malcolm Matheson is probably the best at it. Hard trad routes are a bit like sport routes in a way, people often work these routes and by the time the photographers arrive for the glory shots, they have wroked out exactly what they need in order to protect the route.

So I suppose the answer to your question is, if you are climbing at your limit and intend to onsight, either get very good at judging what gear you are going to need from the ground, become bolder and happier with not having the right gear or deal with the fact that you mat have to carry quite a bit of gear to do the route. It is usually quite easy to decide whether you are going to need the big cowbells (hexes) or big cams for example so this can help you trim the rack etc.

Hope this helps

adski
14-Apr-2005
4:08:03 PM
Cruze, I have no doubt most of the photos of elite climbers doing hard gear routes with little on their harness is because they're doing a lap for the cameras. Or because they're working the route and the gear is already in. Or the route sees so many falls that wires get fixed. Or that people climbing harder routes have good beta about placements from partners / guides.


But it raises an important point about leaders minimising superfluous actions to maximise their chance for success. I reckon people successfully climbing harder gear routes get that way from their experience doing as little as is necessary to get up the route.

I see it as an extension of overgripping - we all know how we can waste energy doing this. Not commiting to sequences, taking heaps of gear, placing heaps of gear etc all chip away at the 'ideal ascent' in terms of efficiency. Anyone who's repeated a route and found it "so much easier" the second or third time knows that's because lots of little movement errors get eliminated, and you only do the minimum necessary to get up the route.

Experienced climbers taking and placing only what is necessary is one small area to gain an advantage, which when combined with all the movement errors can add up to the difference between success and failure.


Like elite climbers not wearing helmets on sport routes, it's probably important to note that it's not recommended that less experienced climbers blindly copy hardman practices. The ability to think for yourself is under-rated, if you think you may need it for safety's sake take it, it's only a few grams. :-)

cruze
14-Apr-2005
5:17:21 PM
Thanks for all your responses guys.

I guess I will keep being a bit of a gear whore for now. I don't climb trad routes that the modern climbing scene calls hard (more like moderate - up to 18 or so), but I still can't help but feel that shedding a couple of kilos of gear around the waste might make the whole experience a little more pleasant.
Wendy
14-Apr-2005
7:51:35 PM


Dual purpose photo (thanks to Shaggy)... gives you and idea of how much gear I drag up trad routes and I'll refer the beta for passport thread to it.

I am notorious for dragging huge amounts of gear up everything. Being 50 kg and carrying 15 kg of rack is adding a huge percentage of your weight, still, it keeps me happy. This was an exceptionally heavy rack, but I placed every single piece of it. I still had to fiddle in the odd wire I had left and downclimb to retrieve a cam to put in the belay. I have invested in lightweight gear to minimise the weight because I'm not getting any braver. I was convinced enough to fork out for a new set of quickdraws after comparing them to my old ones, but I'm too poor to similarly replace my old camalots with the latest ones.

You can always get stronger too ... I think that bucketloads of stamina in necessary to onsite hard trad. A good eye for gear so you don't waste time on it. Sussing things out as much as your ethics will let you.

Eduardo Slabofvic
14-Apr-2005
8:39:46 PM
On 14/04/2005 Wendy wrote:
A good eye for gear so you don't waste
>time on it.

Good point Wendy, for on-sighting, placing good gear fast is very important. I still practice gear placement when waiting around for my turn to climb.

anthonyk
14-Apr-2005
8:57:35 PM
On 14/04/2005 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Good point Wendy, for on-sighting, placing good gear fast is very important.
> I still practice gear placement when waiting around for my turn to climb.

being able to make use of rests and go back and forth from them when necessary is handy too. i think down climbing and being able to move around between a couple of holds to keep yourself from wearing out is a big part of trad climbing (or onsighting rather). so you can check something out, retreat a bit & get your strength back, then go up again with a better idea of what to do.


cruze
15-Apr-2005
9:03:45 AM
Geez Wendy. Your example is enough for me to hold my tongue! At about 80 kg I have no excuses!!

I do make a point of placing gear and moving back to a rest/stance. If I am feeling strong then I test myself at times by placing gear in semi-stenuous positions on more pumpy routes (practice for harder/more sustained routes at a later stage!!??). I think that D Minor on my first trip to Araps a fair while ago was testament to that fact. I think through each of those bulges I placed 3 wires in each! It meant going up, checking which piece, downclimbing, getting piece ready, climbing up, placing piece, scoping the next move, downclimbing, getting piece ready, etc etc. It was at a time when I hadn't climbed much Trad and remember it taking me a fair while (even the people below us were complaining - I didn't care about them). The guidebook's warnings were enough to make me be cautious.

As i said above. If you can climb with 15kg of gear and weigh 50kg. Then my modest rack shouldn't offer me any more trouble again...


billk
15-Apr-2005
12:18:56 PM
Wendy's photo contains another good tip - spread your rack between your harness and a shoulder sling for longer climbs requiring more gear. It reduces that dragging feeling on your harness. However, too much weight on your shoulders probably isn't great for balance.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
15-Apr-2005
8:24:24 PM
I agree with all the comments above and would add that it also depends on what you want out of the climb.

Personally I enjoy the jiggery pokery that goes with onsight gear placements. I tend to take too much gear, but for the most part am happy to place as much of it as I can on lead so it becomes the 2nds worry!!
Ironically however, some of the best topout belays I have made are when I have had to improvise with what remained on my meager rack at the time of topping out after lacing up the lower part extensively.

The art of trad gear placement is integral to the experience in my opinion. Bold runouts have their attraction, but safety on multipitch is higher priority for me, so I guess I will always err on the side of too much gear taken.

As an aside, I have lately taken up the habit of doubling (or tripling) up thinnish gear prior to crux moves rather than relying on only one piece to keep me from a nasty landing...

(PS Nice photo Wendy)

Phil Box
18-Apr-2005
10:35:18 AM
Another point for hard trad is that the gear may be quite small. I`ve been hanging out taking pics and mini DVs of Duncan and Grant at Frog for the past few weeks. They`ve been working from 23 to 28 on way thin hard steep cracks. Duncan generally will protect those cracks with small wires and RPs with the occassional old school rigid friend. Watching him build a nest of RPs at a crux is a thing of beauty.

The point is that wires and RPs don`t weigh much compared to a rack of hands size cams. Quickdraws are being pared down in weight too nowadays.

By the way Grant ticked The Lords Prayer 27 again last Saturday. Duncan worked it and fell four times on a nest of 3 number 2 RPs. The gear came out easily too surprisingly enough. The RPS must have been load sharing. All the loops seemed to be nested fairly equally on the quickdraw. That climb is way hard and for a trad route it is up there. I got some awesome pics and vid of the boys on the route too.

gordoste
18-Apr-2005
5:06:36 PM
pics plz

:P

rhinckle
22-Apr-2005
9:01:11 PM
how many of you folks have made stylish decisions to avoid extra gear,
and then found that if only you'd had the #4 camalot or the #10 or 11 hexes.
or worst of all, the second set of rocks....

my feeling is that if you'd laid out good money for gear, carried it in and then leave it at the bottom of the climb, What's the point?

onya wendy!!


sabu
25-Apr-2005
10:13:03 PM
that's a awsome amount of gear, well done for being able to haul that up!! yea i try to take up generally wat i think i'll need but as my rack is still in it's infancy, it's still not a lot! if u buy something u think u'll eventually, why take it up a climb when u know you won't need it, but when u hit the climb which says "take up a large hex" u'll be glad u bought it!

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There are 37 messages in this topic.

 

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