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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 71
Author
More on Rescue and Gear Shenanigans

evanbb
30/11/2010
11:07:30 AM
Running through the scenarios made a few things clear that weren't before. I'll tell you what they are now.


Carry prussicks made of nylon cord; one short and thin the other long and thin. The short one will be your z-haul clip and autoblock if you ever use one. They've got to be thin to bite the rope properly. We did some tests of knots and cords yesterday and a proper prussick knot, with thin cord is the most reliable by a mile.

The long one will be used for any situation where you need to hold a weighted rope, like escaping a belay. It needs to be long so you can tie a munter/mule to untie later when it takes weight. Strongly recommend frigging around with this one at home before you are halfway up Bunny Bucket Buttress.

Tiblocks are awesome. I reccommend everyone has one on their harness.

Ditto an auto-locking, top belay device; ie ATC Guide or the Reverso.

If your second weighs more than you I reckon you've got buckleys of hauling them on a z-haul. At about 25kg more than Steve I can haul him but I would blow a valve hauling many metres.

Learn the Monster Munter. Invaluable for lowering deadweight. There's a good video on it here
.
One Day Hero
30/11/2010
11:47:21 AM
On 30/11/2010 evanbb wrote:
>If your second weighs more than you I reckon you've got buckleys of hauling
>them on a z-haul. At about 25kg more than Steve I can haul him but I would
>blow a valve hauling many metres.
>
Were you using the right Z-haul? I don't know the name, but the 5:1 with only 3 turns is the way to go.

Hauling rescue.......hmmmm. The only place I can see this happening is with a stuck (uninjured) second at point perp, and then you can take all the time you need. If you're at a bigger cliff and no one is at the top, how would hauling help?

evanbb
30/11/2010
12:30:33 PM
On 30/11/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>Were you using the right Z-haul? I don't know the name, but the 5:1 with
>only 3 turns is the way to go.

Steve, possibly not. But, we experimented with turns and pulleys. He could just budge me at 4:1 but was only just beating the internal friction.
>
>Hauling rescue.......hmmmm. The only place I can see this happening is
>with a stuck (uninjured) second at point perp, and then you can take all
>the time you need. If you're at a bigger cliff and no one is at the top,
>how would hauling help?

Also a possibility for an upper body injured climber (me, dodgy shoulder say), seconding where walking off is heaps easier than a rap retreat. Or even just to haul a second through a hard bit.
One Day Hero
30/11/2010
12:39:20 PM
On 30/11/2010 evanbb wrote:
>Steve, possibly not. But, we experimented with turns and pulleys. He could
>just budge me at 4:1 but was only just beating the internal friction.

I bet you didn't use the good one! 5:1 with 3 turns is cunning and not intuitive. I didn't believe it was possible till shown

>
>Also a possibility for an upper body injured climber (me, dodgy shoulder
>say), seconding where walking off is heaps easier than a rap retreat.

Harden up! Just do a Mel Gibson (from Lethal Weapon).......not a Mel Gibson drunken wife beating (but you can do that too if it makes you feel better about the injured shoulder)


>even just to haul a second through a hard bit.

Make em prussic.....or they owe you 1 beer for every meter hauled!!
patto
30/11/2010
1:52:57 PM
http://oberon.ses.nsw.gov.au/resources/Vertical%20Rescue%20Friction%20Testing.pdf

An excellent summary of haul systems and the effects of friction.
Shown there is a 6:1 with only 3 turns!

In my opinion it is best to stick with a 3:1 Z-drag. But use you god damn legs to haul!! Even with friction it gives you a 2:1 advantage.

Going to crazy 6:1 systems means that you lose more energy to friction and you need to haul 6m of rope just to go 1m. Rope stretch also complicates large ratio systems.
Wendy
30/11/2010
1:53:13 PM
On 30/11/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 30/11/2010 evanbb wrote:
>>Steve, possibly not. But, we experimented with turns and pulleys. He
>could
>>just budge me at 4:1 but was only just beating the internal friction.
>
i can set up one that i can haul people a good 30kg heavier than me on. I might draw a bodgy picture when i have more time or you'll have to get me to show you when you finally make it down here. I wouldn't want to have to do it for long though as you pull a shiteload of rope through for your upward gain. Still, it gets bumbly abseilers with their shirt stuck off the rap rope in about 30 seconds and hauls recalictrant seconds over a move or 2 equally quickly.
widewetandslippery
30/11/2010
1:58:42 PM
There is a thing known as a pig rig (coppers use it) that is setting up a 2:1 on a 2:1 system. Gives you 4:1 with 2:1 friction.

I've used it in work situations and it worked well. (had pulleys and shit)

Tried it at the crag one day with a mate hanging on a bolt and the system attached to a tree (prussics and biners) and ripped the tree out......
patto
30/11/2010
2:12:27 PM
Check out the link if you want to compare the effects of friction.
Wendy
30/11/2010
2:17:38 PM
clean up your pm box evan!!!

evanbb
30/11/2010
2:20:46 PM
On 30/11/2010 Wendy wrote:
>clean up your pm box evan!!!

Fixed! Thanks Wendy.
One Day Hero
30/11/2010
5:27:39 PM
On 30/11/2010 patto wrote:
>
>An excellent summary of haul systems and the effects of friction.
>Shown there is a 6:1 with only 3 turns!
>
Nope, none of those. There's a 5:1 with 3 turns that you pull downwards on......its tricky and non-obvious, which is why those guys didn't have it on their page.

I can haul my own weight up 15m in 5 minutes without pulleys and without busting myself......needs a diagram

Probably the same as Wide's "pig rig"
patto
30/11/2010
5:41:26 PM
??? I wasn't trying to show the 5:1 you were talking about.
One Day Hero
30/11/2010
5:52:43 PM
Easy patto, I was just trying to big up my mad hauling system a bit more. I find 3:1 a bit tough for hauling my own weight without pulleys, 6:1 is too stretchy, 5:1 is the business!
costa
30/11/2010
6:21:57 PM
except to lift someone 10 metres you have to pull 50m through the system

stevec
30/11/2010
8:07:25 PM
Here you go Ev. A 3:1 on top of a 3:1. I couldn't find anything decent actually climbing related, probably because you would never need to use anything approaching this when actually climbing. However this has neatly and cheaply solved the problem of setting up long lines on my own.
Now I really do need to buy a whole spool of 1 inch webbing.
Wendy
30/11/2010
8:37:47 PM
On 30/11/2010 patto wrote:
>http://oberon.ses.nsw.gov.au/resources/Vertical%20Rescue%20Friction%20Testing.pdf

i can't get my head around all those diagrams tonight. Here's the bodgy drawing of my system which could well be 27:1 for all I know, but it works.


>
>
>In my opinion it is best to stick with a 3:1 Z-drag. But use you god
>damn legs to haul!! Even with friction it gives you a 2:1 advantage.

there's no way in the known universe i can haul anyone over 60kg (if that) on a 3:1, i must have god damn pīss poor legs .... i do sometimes clip me to the down end of the system and just use my weight to pull down with, but your average size male still aint moving. it's actually worth the few extra seconds it takes to shove an extra tibloc/ropeman like thing on and rig up another loop - i can then quite easily haul Anthony, even when he's just hanging and not trying to climb.
>
>Going to crazy 6:1 systems means that you lose more energy to friction
>and you need to haul 6m of rope just to go 1m. Rope stretch also complicates
>large ratio systems.

there's definately a lot of rope to haul in. I don't have a drama with friction or rope stretch though
ET
30/11/2010
9:28:38 PM
I hope I'm never that (unfortunate) fat bastard at the end of the rope in a real emergency... especially with those I know carry a knife around for longer climbs...

One of the things I found somewhere on the net, which I found effective for tensioning slacklines but haven't tested yet in hauling (though I see no reason why it shouldn't work), is to simply make an handle on the end of the rope your pulling. This can be done by simply tying some knots or tying a prussik on that end and attach a carabiner. No extra friction in the system and it makes pulling the rope HEAPS easier (you still need at least a z pulley to pull any decent amount of weight up though...)

sbm
1/12/2010
10:02:33 AM
On 30/11/2010 Wendy wrote:
>On 30/11/2010 patto wrote:
>>http://oberon.ses.nsw.gov.au/resources/Vertical%20Rescue%20Friction%20Testing.pdf
>
>i can't get my head around all those diagrams tonight. Here's the bodgy
>drawing of my system which could well be 27:1 for all I know, but it works.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>In my opinion it is best to stick with a 3:1 Z-drag. But use you god
>>damn legs to haul!! Even with friction it gives you a 2:1 advantage.
>
>there's no way in the known universe i can haul anyone over 60kg (if that)
>on a 3:1, i must have god damn pīss poor legs .... i do sometimes clip
>me to the down end of the system and just use my weight to pull down with,
>but your average size male still aint moving. it's actually worth the
>few extra seconds it takes to shove an extra tibloc/ropeman like thing
>on and rig up another loop - i can then quite easily haul Anthony, even
>when he's just hanging and not trying to climb.
>>
>>Going to crazy 6:1 systems means that you lose more energy to friction
>>and you need to haul 6m of rope just to go 1m. Rope stretch also complicates
>>large ratio systems.
>
>there's definately a lot of rope to haul in. I don't have a drama with
>friction or rope stretch though

I think that looks like a 3:1 z-pully rigged on top of another 3:1 z-pully, which would make it 9:1?
patto
1/12/2010
10:11:15 AM
On 1/12/2010 sbm wrote:
>I think that looks like a 3:1 z-pully rigged on top of another 3:1 z-pully,
>which would make it 9:1?

Yep. And according to the document linked you would expect around 4.5:1 effective advantage after taking into account friction on carabiners.
Wendy
1/12/2010
11:14:23 AM
On 1/12/2010 patto wrote:
>On 1/12/2010 sbm wrote:
>>I think that looks like a 3:1 z-pully rigged on top of another 3:1 z-pully,
>>which would make it 9:1?


Well, that would explain the mountains of rope hauled in!
>
>Yep. And according to the document linked you would expect around 4.5:1
>effective advantage after taking into account friction on carabiners.

it works anyway - it definately hauls people well over half my weight again with remarkable ease - so theoretically a 5 or 6:1 system with low enough friction could be fine. if ODH wants to get artistic and draw his 5:1 i'm prepared to give that a go.

Does 4.5:1 mean in effect that when hauling 90kg, you have to actually pull 20kg?

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There are 71 messages in this topic.

 

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