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Chockstone Forum - Gear Lust / Lost & Found

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Author
Daisy Chains and other Lanyards
patto
14/05/2010
11:19:54 AM
While this topic has been almost done to death this is the best test results I have seen showing the dangers of high tech fibres in personal attachments.
*Metolius PAS break at FF 1.25
*Spectra daisy break at FF 0.5
*The nylon daisy survived FF2.
*Purcell prusik was only 12kN with a FF2

Daisy Chains and other Lanyards

Testing with a 100kg solid mass is obviously more extreme than your typical 80kg solid climber, but it still in interesting.
ZERO
14/05/2010
12:21:01 PM
This argument comes up a lot.
The important messages are taking an "acceptable level of risk" and limiting how far you can fall from an anchor.
As we all generally have the 50+ metre umbilical cord when climbing, there is no excuse for using some of it to double up on anchors.
hargs
14/05/2010
12:24:01 PM
So I read that report and my knee-jerk response was 'holy crap, I'll have to retire my PAS.' I like my PAS and even though it's the best of the bunch it still failed at a relatively low fall factor, which makes the PAS--or any Spectra or Dyneema sling--sound like a rubbish idea.

But then isn't catching a leader fall of FF 1.25 very different than shock loading a PAS with a FF 1.25? For example: if you're hanging off a PAS so there's no slack in the system between belayer and anchor -- then the belayer could hold a leader fall of FF 1.25, and the PAS itself would experience a fall factor approaching zero. Seems like you'd be hard pressed creating a situation where you drop the full length of the PAS onto the anchors. Or am I missing something here?

It's a bit of an academic question. I'd normally tie into the anchors with rope or a cordalette.

wallwombat
14/05/2010
12:45:51 PM
On 14/05/2010 hargs wrote:
> I'd normally tie into the anchors with rope or a cordalette.

That's what I do and I always feel a little left out of these techno-geeky threads about personal anchor systems, daisy chains and the like.

My advice is stick with your PAS. It will give you a lot more options - if only on this website.
patto
14/05/2010
1:31:03 PM
On 14/05/2010 hargs wrote:
>So I read that report and my knee-jerk response was 'holy crap, I'll have
>to retire my PAS.' I like my PAS and even though it's the best of the bunch
>it still failed at a relatively low fall factor, which makes the PAS--or
>any Spectra or Dyneema sling--sound like a rubbish idea.
>
>But then isn't catching a leader fall of FF 1.25 very different than shock
>loading a PAS with a FF 1.25? For example: if you're hanging off a PAS
>so there's no slack in the system between belayer and anchor -- then the
>belayer could hold a leader fall of FF 1.25, and the PAS itself would experience
>a fall factor approaching zero. Seems like you'd be hard pressed creating
>a situation where you drop the full length of the PAS onto the anchors.
>Or am I missing something here?
>
>It's a bit of an academic question. I'd normally tie into the anchors
>with rope or a cordalette.

I didn't post this report expecting or encouraging people to retire their PAS.

As you say if you are weighting your PAS or lanyard and there is no slack then it isn't a concern. However it should always be known that you shouldn't let slack build up in your lanyard. If your waist is level with the anchor your potentially have a FF1 fall onto the lanyard.

The topic isn't particularly new but the study was the best data I've seen yet.
JDB
14/05/2010
2:28:00 PM
>Testing with a 100kg solid mass is obviously more extreme than your typical
>80kg solid climber, but it still in interesting.

My,my,Patto, you've been a a good paddock since moving to Nati
By my estimations you were ~80Kg last time I saw you...but 100Kg...you porker !!
mikllaw
14/05/2010
5:06:16 PM
The important thing (which most of you already know) is that all these slings will easily hold what we worry about- a 5m plus factor 2 fall where you're belayed by the rope.

These slings have so little stretch that if you fall onto them with no rope (which also means no belay slip) you could break them and you'd certainly break some part of you body if they didn't break.

sarah gara
14/05/2010
5:14:17 PM
So if I was on a ledge. Fastened to the anchor only by a cow tail slingy thing and slipped of the edge it is likely that the sling would snap? Am I understanding this correctly? x
Olbert
Online Now
14/05/2010
6:14:07 PM
On 14/05/2010 sarah gara wrote:
>So if I was on a ledge. Fastened to the anchor only by a cow tail slingy
>thing and slipped of the edge it is likely that the sling would snap? Am
>I understanding this correctly? x

Only if the sling was not tight before you fell off the ledge. Ie if you were loosely tied to the anchor with a cow tail and then accidently stepped off the ledge there is a good chance that it would snap.

This scenario would be rare. Most of the time when you are cowtailed to the powerpoint of the anchor you are either weighting the anchor or close enough to weighting the anchor that if you slip or overbalance the fall factor will be small.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
14/05/2010
8:41:12 PM
Once upon a time, a cows tail referred to a short length of climbing rope used for that purpose. Climbing rope would easily hold the forces involved...

The original post referred to measurements in fall factors. This is not something easily considered, as most people in a belay situation only need to know how far they can fall safely. Is it half a metre?, is it 1 metre? etc. ... ~> quite a different thing to Fall Factor.

>Testing with a 100kg solid mass is obviously more extreme than your typical 80kg solid climber, but it still in interesting.

An 80 kg climber can easily be carrying 20 kg of rack/rope/etc! (particularly on aid), so it is not so far fetched in my opinion.

My summary in a nutshell, after looking at the link provided;

  • If using high tech material (spectra etc), you can only afford to fall a quarter of the daisys/lanyards length to not have it fail. Any more than that and it will fail or subject you/other gear to very high forces, or both.

  • If using nylon, then you can fall up to the length of the daisy/lanyard, but at that point it will likely start to fail.



kieranl
8/10/2012
3:28:15 PM
Thought it worth resurrecting this thread to show how it's done in the outside world. These tightrope walkers in Khiva have lanyards of steel. And the 4-year-old on top has no fear...



And the rigging is pretty special too


shortman
Online Now
8/10/2012
3:46:54 PM
In a set-up like this old skool one the line itself (tightwire) absorbs the energy if a fall is taken.

Whips you back up a bit though.

shortman
Online Now
8/10/2012
3:47:57 PM
Looks like any pre cirque de soliel rigging to me.

When the rope has worn through kieran, then, and only then do you replace it.
kieranl
8/10/2012
4:17:44 PM
It's the almost clove hitch securing one of the cables (top-right) that impresses me.

shortman
Online Now
8/10/2012
7:22:48 PM
Should be good for another 20 years.
Mr Poopypants
9/10/2012
12:54:58 PM
It's okay, they've added coloured bunting for strength! Must get some.
G.

sliamese
9/10/2012
4:21:23 PM
very unrealistic IMO, but worth taking note of.

how on earth is it physically possible to whip a FF2 onto your daisy in the real world. even top-stepping at full reach, its not going to be free fall as somethings gonna slow you down before your lanyard!!

again i guess another reason i just use the rope, one less thing to carry, get cluttered give you a wedgie. i think they belong with aid climbers and clipped to the outside of packs next to shoes and chalkbags(especially if theres room in the bag still)

There are 17 messages in this topic.

 

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