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Kong Cams

..::- Chris -::..

16-May-2009
12:09:26 PM

Who's got them?
Who likes em'?
Who doesn't?

Looking to upgrade a few of my old WC's which have always served me well but looking at the prices there is a huge difference in cost.... The WC's have triple omega or something safety standard is what the guy in bongong was explaining...

Thoughts ??

Cheers
Chris : )

foreverabumbly

16-May-2009
12:41:29 PM

I have some, I dont like them but they do the job.

the reason is the action is stiffer and Ive had to do far more maintanance on them than any other cam, and I find they dont fit as well as their counterparts - the head is too wide and the range small.

I only have them in the smaller range and am comparing them to BD and Aliens.

But they are cams, and they will hod you in a fall, and they do work, so I guess it is a question of whether you want your cams to be nicer or not, and wether the cost is justifiable to you.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-May-2009
1:04:08 PM

As pointed out above, they don't have the individual range of some other brands, but they work.

Throwing 'kong' into the 'search threads' function turns up some info, and some interesting opinions on this thread.

The three-sigma(?) rating is the BD standard. Googling it will basically tell you that it is more rigorous than other standards, and should inspire greater confidence in the product/s it is used for.

In the fullness of time you will likely end up with a mix of cams; as like nuts; some work better than others in specific placements.
I have noticed over time that the trend is towards lighter gear ...

To some extent, at the end of the day you get what you pay for.

patto

16-May-2009
2:34:25 PM

First off Kong cams actually have better camming range that WC (at least on paper). This would likely be due to a less aggressive camming angle (less holding power). But likely more holding power than BD which has the least aggressive camming angle (14degrees equivalent)

On 16/05/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>The three-sigma(?) rating is the BD standard. Googling it will basically
>tell you that it is more rigorous than other standards, and should inspire
>greater confidence in the product/s it is used for.
To claim that that BD's standards are superior or more 'rigorous' other manufacturers standards is a big call. Unless you have any real evidence of this then I suggest you don't make such claims.

>To some extent, at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
For sure but unless you buying from dodgy Ukranian cam companies then the differences mostly lie in usability rather than rating standards.

I don't believe that 3 sigma standard is unique to BD. Id be very surprised if the other companies don't rate their cams in a similar fashion. BD just makes a big deal about it.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/about/3_sigma.php

3 sigma just is the statistical threshold for rating the cams. The statistical model actually says that 1or2 cams in 1000 will fail below the rated value. As opposed to 2sigma that says 23 failures, and 1sigma that says 320 failures in 1000. I very much doubt 'other' manufactuers use 2sigma or 1sigma.

skink

16-May-2009
4:42:00 PM

On 16/05/2009 patto wrote:
>First off Kong cams actually have better camming range that WC (at least
>on paper). This would likely be due to a less aggressive camming angle
>(less holding power). But likely more holding power than BD which has
>the least aggressive camming angle (14degrees equivalent)

Yeah, those BD cams, worst holding power...

IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-May-2009
8:36:01 PM

On 16/05/2009 patto wrote:
>To claim that that BD's standards are superior or more 'rigorous' other
>manufacturers standards is a big call. Unless you have any real evidence
>of this then I suggest you don't make such claims.

?
Interesting call you are making on what you allege I have claimed, there patto.
You misread my post.
I am saying that BD promote the fact about their 3 sigma rating and they reckon it should inspire greater confidence in their product.
My interpretation of that; is that any product that uses similar (or better), standard should be confidence inspiring.
~> and this reflected in what I wrote being ...

and should inspire greater confidence in the product/s it is used for.

... I made no mention of the standards any other manufacturers use, because I don't know if they are better or worse. Nor did I say BD are better or worse than Kong, only that (if one believes the BD hype), that they claim a 'confidence inspiring*' testing/rating system.
(*My words ~ not theirs).

>
>>To some extent, at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
>For sure but unless you buying from dodgy Ukranian cam companies then
>the differences mostly lie in usability rather than rating standards.

Probably, but I'd reckon the biggest difference is the actual user placement, vagaries of rock type etc
>
>I don't believe that 3 sigma standard is unique to BD. Id be very surprised
>if the other companies don't rate their cams in a similar fashion. BD
>just makes a big deal about it.
>http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/about/3_sigma.php

Whatever.
I am not spamming their product.
Use whatever you want. I will stick with my slung pebbles!

>3 sigma just is the statistical threshold for rating the cams. The statistical
>model actually says that 1or2 cams in 1000 will fail below the rated value.
> As opposed to 2sigma that says 23 failures, and 1sigma that says 320 failures
>in 1000. I very much doubt 'other' manufactuers use 2sigma or 1sigma.

Good.
It means that we, the end users, can have confidence in climbing gear manufacturers/processes.

I also happen to believe that standards are a wonderful thing.
The most wonderous thing about them is that there are so many to choose from!

patto

17-May-2009
10:11:53 PM

On 17/05/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 16/05/2009 patto wrote:
>Interesting call you are making on what you allege I have claimed, there
>patto.
>You misread my post.

Fair enough. Sorry if I misread.

Incidently, I love my BD cams. :-)

IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-May-2009
8:46:38 AM

Cool.
☺

Btw, I like my BD cams better than some others on my rack too(!), but they only make up about a quarter of the very mixed bag it consists of.
;-)

Duncan

18-May-2009
10:06:37 AM

On 16/05/2009 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>Who's got them?
>Who likes em'?
>Who doesn't?

As far as I'm aware, the Kong cams are the same as the Rock Empire single stem jobbies, which I have a few of. They're fine, but camalots are my go to cam.

..::- Chris -::..

18-May-2009
10:09:05 AM

OK So from this i get that they hold, they are a bit stiffer to use and perhaps heavier ?....

I've had WC flexi friends for 10 years not sure whether to invest part of Mr Rudd's stimulus package in 6 Kong Cams and maybe a new rope or go for 6 WC or BD friends...

The other problem is I haven't seen or felt the action on the Kong Cams apart viewing on the screen of Rock Hardware's store, which unfortunately i don't live near.... do any shops in melbourne sell them i know bogong doesn't....

I'm simply looking at the price and i can buy approx 1.6 Kong cams per WC cam....

Anyone know a shop where i can have a closeup look touch ?? Any other thoughts 6 Kong's and Rope or 6 WC what would you choose...; ) My Rack (CAM wise) currently Consists of 5 WC Cams currently but 2 * #3 2 * #1 and a #0.5 and a broken don't trust #2 CAM ; )

Thanks for the responces thus far.
Cheers
Chris.

Wendy

18-May-2009
10:41:53 AM

Tis a sad and sorry state of affairs, but the best value for your money is buying from the states. rockclimbingtools.com and gearexpress.com are particularly good value and will post a substantial package to Oz for about $40. rockclimbingtools postage is cheaper for little packages. We just got 6 master cams for $US270 and set of walnuts for $US89. I'd buy nice cams, and light one's. They are so worth it when they are easy to place, feel really solid and if you shave a few kilos off your rack, it doesn't matter that you put them on your middle with a few more beers and some chocolate cake ...

When I do buy in Oz, rockhardware and climbinganchors have consistantly good prices and I buy from AMS because Phil's local and gives ACIA discounts. But for big orders, it's still the sad truth that your Ruddy money will go further in the states. Think of it as stimulating the economy that got us into this mess in the first place.

Paz

18-May-2009
10:46:45 AM

Phil at Araps sells them...$80 bucks or so but make sure you ask him to price match haha....

wallwombat

18-May-2009
12:47:30 PM

On 18/05/2009 Wendy wrote:
> We just got 6 master cams for $US270.

I bought 4 master cams from backcountrygear.com for $US172. They were on special for $US44 each. I thought that was a pretty good price.

Those US gear sites always have specials going so it's a good idea to check a few of them out before buying anything.

Mike Bee

18-May-2009
8:15:04 PM

I work at a gear shop in Adelaide. We used to sell Kong cams, but we've recently swapped to Rock Empire.

The action of the RE is a little heavier, but it feels a lot more solid (if you can imagine that), and the units are marginally heavier overall. I also think that the RE are finished much better than the Kong. They certainly didn't seem to be the same unit with different brands on it.

We stopped selling Kong as we had a couple returned. The swaging on the trigger wire pulled on one or two, and the place that the spring mounts onto the lobes was also suspect and slipped off another one. This was on newly purchased cams that should have been no-where near needing maintenance. Not a safety issue as such, as the holding power of the cams was not comprimised, but you couldn't cam the unit, you would have had to push the cam into a crack and the unit would have cammed as it went in deeper. It would have been a bastard to clean.

Comparatively, we probably sold twice to three times as many BD cams as Kong during that time, and have never had a BD cam returned for a warranty claim.

There are 14 messages in this topic.