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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 8 of 9. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 174
Author
biner breaks on Forever Young

Climboholic
19/12/2011
4:24:15 PM
From the moderation poll thread:

On 17/12/2011 Doug Bruce wrote:
>Being someone who has - justifiably - had his wrist slapped a couple of
>times for basically being a rude prat, I'd have to agree that the moderators
>of Chocky do a fine job. Re having one's privileges suspended for a week
>or whatever, a little "time out" is not a bad thing sometimes ...

Clearly it works on some people who have a modicum of humility.
dalai
19/12/2011
4:53:13 PM
>On 19/12/2011 Wendy wrote:
>>On 17/12/2011 useful wrote:
>>Aren't we all getting a little haughty about this? If ODH goes around calling
>>everything and everyone a retard, he knows he's going to get banned.Lo
>>and behold he got banned - for one goddammed pussy week. This is a perfectly
>>sensible action by the mods.
>>
>I'm not being haughty. I just think it's been demonstrated time and time
>again that time out doesn't change how people interact - if they like their
>little shebang, they continue it when they get back. Banned people reincarnate
>themselves and continue playing.

Even Hex understood the rules and in the end the fair compromise was that they played in the one topic. Very rarely has the same user come back repeatedly and caused grief. The few that do have after a while they just given up or think a little longer before hitting OK.

In regards to moderation - in another website I visit also with a current discussion on the topic, the following was said and makes sense "It still costs money to defend against defamation and there is no guarantee of recouping costs through an award of costs. Moderation is one of those things...if you have a moderator function and moderation does not take place, then you are probably more likely to be liable than if the forum were unmoderated."
rolsen1
19/12/2011
5:04:57 PM
On 19/12/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I'm not being haughty. I just think it's been demonstrated time and time
>again that time out doesn't change how people interact - if they like their
>little shebang, they continue it when they get back. Banned people reincarnate
>themselves and continue playing. Anyone who doesn't like what Damo writes
>can stand up for themselves and challenge it. That would be sensible.
> Think of it as like a playground. You have to learn to deal with shît
>you don't like if you want to play. Temporary or permanent bans aren't
>sensible, they are just posing - because we know that in actuality, anyone
>can start a new account and start again. Or come back and do exactly the
>same thing when they leave the naughty mat.

I guess you're not a parent then, or umpire a sport. If you don't stamp on inappropriate behaviours then people will push them further and others will then retaliate. The yellow card/red card system has been shown to work in sports no reason it can't work here, and as dalia has said has worked on here before.

If you want to play then you need to play by the rules.
Wendy
19/12/2011
9:32:10 PM
On 19/12/2011 rolsen1 wrote:

>
>I guess you're not a parent then, or umpire a sport. If you don't stamp
>on inappropriate behaviours then people will push them further and others
>will then retaliate. The yellow card/red card system has been shown to
>work in sports no reason it can't work here, and as dalia has said has
>worked on here before.
>
>If you want to play then you need to play by the rules.

Whilst I might not be a parent or umpire sport, I have an extensive history of work with traumatised children and supporting parents and foster parents. It is this history which feeds my belief that these sorts of disciplinary measures are in general ineffective. Chockstone is a community. Yes we have some guidelines to encourage behaviour we prefer in the community, but we also as members of the community have a responsibility to respond to things we find out of order in various ways and this community response is what maintains behaviour, not top down disciplinary measures. It's like saying don't to a child. Or a contrary adult. You instantly want to do exactly that. In the case of Doug Bruce, I am guessing he hadn't thought about how what he is saying might come across and thus a warning was helpful to him.. This sort of warning/explanation/confrontation can come from anyone, it doesn't need to come from moderators, and in my view is more powerful when from community members. You also need to have some attachment to what you are losing for the threat of losing it to be effective. If you don't care, or figure you'll just create a new account and won't be losing anything, well, it's all a useless threat anyway. Someone like Damo knows exactly what they are doing, are doing it for a reason, continue to do so regardless of all top down threats and I'll place my bet that he'll be back sledging generously next week as if this week never happened.

All of this rabbitting has way more to do with my beliefs on discipline, learning, getting on in the world and community participation than this whole incident with Damo. Maybe I'm overly optimistic of the maturity of people in the world, but I think most things are best managed by the people involved and any moderation should be minimal -support/guidance/reminders. I personally have a lot of time for Damo even if he does have a disturbing habit of throwing gay slurs around willynilly, but I do think it's laughable if anyone's deluding themselves that he'll be back nice as pie next week.

It's very simple really. If you don't like something someone does, tell them so. If you do it constructively, it'll de-escalate (incidently, "don't do that, it's against the rules" is not very constructive in these circumstances. as if anyone didn't already know it was against the rules). If the best way of de-escalating it is to ignore it, try that. If you want a shitfight, barge in antagonistically and start an all out brawl for our amusement. Try and be witty about it though please.
rightarmbad
19/12/2011
10:14:03 PM
Having come from a refereeing background, (basketball) I can say that nipping it in the bud is nothing to do with a good ref.
Consistency with applying the rules is.

Nipping it in the bud creates a fuzzy line that leaves all confused.
A simply solid line that when crossed is penalised appropriately, is what is required.

Same as parenting, the fuzzier the line, the more problems occur.

You can caution when the line is approached so as to guide to it's presence, but you cannot let some go and not others.
Just because somebody only says something rarely, does not mean it should be let go, it needs the same line applied.
ODH only ever says what is said all the time on these forums, he just says it more often.........

He may paint a target on his back, doesn't mean he should be shot any more than the next who cross the line.

stugang
20/12/2011
8:25:47 PM
Wendy, stop acting as if this is the United frikin Nations. This is just a lame arse climbing website in which people talk shit.

Rules and moderators are necessary in order to create boundaries to rebel against - think of a game of chess where every piece as well as the horsey one can jump over thingys. BORING BORING BORING

Damo, as you so affectionately call him, knew he was on the way out…Yes, he'll be back, but the whole chockstone "community" is now the wiser as to the limit of one of the boundaries that can be pushed.

As for the real business - who was the totally lame retard that said in response to another post, "I wish ODH were here to tell this person what I really think"? You gotta admit that was pretty fukin lame.

Ironically, I agree, as I too can't wait to see ODH bag the shit out of the minda that needs to appeal to a banned persona to pay the shit out of a retard.
Wendy
20/12/2011
8:48:13 PM
On 20/12/2011 useful wrote:
>Wendy, stop acting as if this is the United frikin Nations. This is just
>a lame arse climbing website in which people talk shit.

What, this isn't the united nations? Aren't we resolving important world issues here?
>
>
>Damo, as you so affectionately call him, knew he was on the way out…Yes,
>he'll be back, but the whole chockstone "community" is now the wiser as
>to the limit of one of the boundaries that can be pushed.
>

Monikers shit me. That'd be why I just use my real name. And call people I actually know by their real names. It's on his profile, it's no big secret. And what limits are people now aware of? That you can call people every name under the sun for years and randomly one day someone will decide to sit you in the corner for a week? That's a precise and helpful limit that I'm glad has been cleared up.

>As for the real business - who was the totally lame retard that said in
>response to another post, "I wish ODH were here to tell this person what
>I really think"? You gotta admit that was pretty fukin lame.
>

Freely admitted!

>Ironically, I agree, as I too can't wait to see ODH bag the shit out of
>the minda that needs to appeal to a banned persona to pay the shit out
>of a retard.


Doug
20/12/2011
9:00:51 PM
Hmmmmm. Wasn't this thread about a broken 'biner? ;-)

Eduardo Slabofvic
20/12/2011
10:38:41 PM
On 20/12/2011 Doug Bruce wrote:
>Hmmmmm.

Quis moderatoriet ipsos moderatores?
dalai
20/12/2011
10:48:11 PM
On 20/12/2011 Doug Bruce wrote:
>Hmmmmm. Wasn't this thread about a broken 'biner? ;-)

Talk about climbing??? That is a novel idea... ;-)

Wendy - please point me to an unmoderated forum where people discuss issues without resorting to topics descending into a slagging match and hostility.

I would love to not spend my time modding, so your forum utopia sounds great!

In regards to Damo - the mature approach has been attempted all year as we don't want to resort to time outs or editing posts. I and the other mods have repeatedly posted online and by PM asking him nicely to please go back and edit his comments. I actually agree often with what he says, just not how he says it. I don't want to ban him temporarily or permanently!

But I have seen the replys by OHD to the chockstone moderator login (I don't use this - all modding by me is transparent so if I have done modding it is clear it was me and I am happy to discuss my actions) where he has responded to the requests basically taunting the mods to give him a time out. I only obliged when I felt he crossed the line again.
Wendy
21/12/2011
12:28:55 PM
On 20/12/2011 dalai wrote:

>
>Wendy - please point me to an unmoderated forum where people discuss issues
>without resorting to topics descending into a slagging match and hostility.

Fortunately, i don't frequent any other forums, otherwise I'd never get any climbing done! I've said it before, I'll say it one last time before I shut up about the whole topic (until next time!) - I still think that forums degenerate into slagging matches and hostility because of participants' lack of active participation in maintenance of their own community more than lack of modding. If enough people in the forum take responsibility for standing up for their standards in an appropriate fashion, life is easier for everybody. This isn't hanging shit on you guys for being mods, it's saying everybody needs to come to the party for a community to remain fun and civilised and it's an abdication of that to expect moderators to do all the dirty work. A bit like those people wanting Damo to do all the dirty work of keeping everyone entertained! Maybe a few people have thought they might speak up in the future as a result of my pressing the case incessantly for a few days, or maybe it'll all be left to you guys again and again.
>
>I would love to not spend my time modding, so your forum utopia sounds
>great!
>
>In regards to Damo - the mature approach has been attempted all year as
>we don't want to resort to time outs or editing posts. I and the other
>mods have repeatedly posted online and by PM asking him nicely to please
>go back and edit his comments. I actually agree often with what he says,
>just not how he says it. I don't want to ban him temporarily or permanently!
>
>
>But I have seen the replys by OHD to the chockstone moderator login (I
>don't use this - all modding by me is transparent so if I have done modding
>it is clear it was me and I am happy to discuss my actions) where he has
>responded to the requests basically taunting the mods to give him a time
>out. I only obliged when I felt he crossed the line again.

In all honesty, i can understand that reaction! A lot of the reprimands and requests in the public forum have sounded sanctimonious enough to encourage me to bite back too. I know it's a hard line to walk, but the nanny tone really jars with some people and has the opposite effect.

But really, Damo's persona shouldn't be a massive issue. Everyone realises it's not serious, yes? Just in case anyone was actually taking it all to heart? Bite back in the same fashion and it's not going to degenerate into insurmountable hostility (unlike biting back at certain other people on the forum, which could get genuinely ugly). Return the pisstaking at the same level and reply calmly and honestly if it's all gotten too much and you've had enough of playing now.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
21/12/2011
12:51:37 PM
Although continuing off topic it is an interesting discussion.

On 21/12/2011 Wendy wrote:
>I still think that forums degenerate into slagging matches and hostility because of participants' lack of active participation in maintenance of their own community more than lack of modding. If enough people in the forum take responsibility for standing up for their standards in an appropriate fashion, life is easier for everybody.

Good point.

>A lot of the reprimands and requests in the public forum have sounded sanctimonious enough to encourage me to bite back too. I know it's a hard line to walk, but the nanny tone really jars with some people and has the opposite effect.

?
Nanny tone from the Mods?
From what I have read on this site, it does not come across this way to me. Instead, I'd argue that they are doing their job professionally and would say that most posts (by Chocky community), are quite clear cut as either being serious or frivolous. The Mod posts especially so, (I agree with you though to the extent that they come across with no humour)!

>Return the pisstaking at the same level and reply calmly and honestly if it's all gotten too much and you've had enough of playing now.

When emotion is involved this is hard to do for some?
In any event, how is this different to a thread descending into a flame war?
:)
rolsen1
22/12/2011
8:15:05 AM
On 19/12/2011 Wendy wrote:
>On 19/12/2011 rolsen1 wrote:
>
>>
>>I guess you're not a parent then, or umpire a sport. If you don't stamp
>>on inappropriate behaviours then people will push them further and others
>>will then retaliate. The yellow card/red card system has been shown
>to
>>work in sports no reason it can't work here, and as dalia has said has
>>worked on here before.
>>
>>If you want to play then you need to play by the rules.
>
>Whilst I might not be a parent or umpire sport, I have an extensive history
>of work with traumatised children and supporting parents and foster parents.
> It is this history which feeds my belief that these sorts of disciplinary
>measures are in general ineffective. Chockstone is a community. Yes we
>have some guidelines to encourage behaviour we prefer in the community,
>but we also as members of the community have a responsibility to respond
>to things we find out of order in various ways and this community response
>is what maintains behaviour, not top down disciplinary measures. It's
>like saying don't to a child. Or a contrary adult. You instantly want
>to do exactly that. In the case of Doug Bruce, I am guessing he hadn't
>thought about how what he is saying might come across and thus a warning
>was helpful to him.. This sort of warning/explanation/confrontation can
>come from anyone, it doesn't need to come from moderators, and in my view
>is more powerful when from community members. You also need to have some
>attachment to what you are losing for the threat of losing it to be effective.
> If you don't care, or figure you'll just create a new account and won't
>be losing anything, well, it's all a useless threat anyway. Someone like
>Damo knows exactly what they are doing, are doing it for a reason, continue
>to do so regardless of all top down threats and I'll place my bet that
>he'll be back sledging generously next week as if this week never happened.
>
>
>All of this rabbitting has way more to do with my beliefs on discipline,
>learning, getting on in the world and community participation than this
>whole incident with Damo. Maybe I'm overly optimistic of the maturity of
>people in the world, but I think most things are best managed by the people
>involved and any moderation should be minimal -support/guidance/reminders.
>I personally have a lot of time for Damo even if he does have a disturbing
>habit of throwing gay slurs around willynilly, but I do think it's laughable
>if anyone's deluding themselves that he'll be back nice as pie next week.
>
>It's very simple really. If you don't like something someone does, tell
>them so. If you do it constructively, it'll de-escalate (incidently, "don't
>do that, it's against the rules" is not very constructive in these circumstances.
> as if anyone didn't already know it was against the rules). If the best
>way of de-escalating it is to ignore it, try that. If you want a shitfight,
>barge in antagonistically and start an all out brawl for our amusement.
> Try and be witty about it though please.

Wendy, the problem is that you argue just as passionately about things you know nothing about as things you do. This waters down everything you say, which is unfortunate as on the whole your posts are worth reading.

I can't be bothered answering your post, as there is little point.

Doug
22/12/2011
8:24:01 AM
Hmmmmm (again). It looks like this thread was once about a 'biner breaking but is no longer - about a 'binder breaking. Maybe the thread itself should be no longer?
Wendy
22/12/2011
8:24:59 AM
On 22/12/2011 rolsen1 wrote:

>
>Wendy, the problem is that you argue just as passionately about things
>you know nothing about as things you do. This waters down everything you
>say, which is unfortunate as on the whole your posts are worth reading.
>
>
>I can't be bothered answering your post, as there is little point.

Thanks for concluding that because I don't agree with you I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'll remember that next time I have a different viewpoint to other people. It's actually just because I know nothing about it, and if I did, then it would be clear to me that they are right.

It's a good thing I am now putting my fingers in my ears and singing lalalalala - I'm bored of preaching to people that developing and practising some social skills is preferable to relying on a net nanny to make everything nice for you.

climbau
22/12/2011
8:44:06 AM
And we don't need Police either. Everyone just needs to develop their social skills, except those who take pleasure in flaunting societal standards!

Sorry Wendy, I like this Utopian idea of yours but I just don't think it is realistic enough.

Just 'cause my Mummy didn't love me enough and my Dad beat up on me for playing fairies with my sister, it doesn't mean that I should be exempt from behaving like a responsible member of society. (not that that is the case)
Punishment can and should be issued along with the necessary services to allow offenders to deal with their own underlying issues. But this is all worth nothing if the offender acts out of a desire to cause trouble for no other reason than their own entertainment.
It is really easy to apply rational ideas to a given situation, however when the situation is all about irrational people and actions the game is not so easy.

There is not one formula to fix all evils.
Will_P
22/12/2011
9:54:56 AM
Staying off-topic... I don't think anyone is advocating the total disbandment of Moderator intervention (or extrapolating that to 'we don't need a police force' either)... my interpretation of what Wendy is saying (based on, ah, what she's written) is that peer intervention/discussion/feedback about inappropriate behaviour is PREFERABLE to relying on an authorised power to intervene. I don't think there's a reasonable argument against that point of view. If your neighbour is playing corporate rock at 3am, it's usually best to ask them nicely to turn it down before calling the cops. Resolving that issue through reasonable discussion rather than the threat of punitive action from an authority figure is going to be more satisfying too. But if they just change it to loud hip hop, yeah, call the cops and hope the capsicum spray delivers the message.
Damo666
22/12/2011
11:47:41 AM
On 20/12/2011 Wendy wrote:
>On 20/12/2011 useful wrote:

>
>Monikers shit me. That'd be why I just use my real name. And call people
>I actually know by their real names. It's on his profile, it's no big secret

Well Wendy, it shits me that Google might drag up this thread and lead someone to see just a few of the posts and think you're all talking about me. I don't post here that much, for various reasons, but plenty of people in the climbing community know me as Damo and I post - and argue and rant - on other sites as Damo.

I think arguments on a site should be kept on-site and names accordingly. If ODH posts under that name, gets plaudits and brickbats under that name, then on the site he should be referred to under that name during issues that pertain to him, because it's all specific to him. Consistency avoids confusion.

Although I generally dislike people not using their real names, or an abbreviation or approximation, it's the way of the internet, has been for years, and with some good reason. There are plenty of people on this and other sites that I know personally and/or have climbed with and I deliberately do NOT refer to them by their real name in threads. I respect that they may not want that done, thus the reason they have a 'moniker'.

deadbudgy
22/12/2011
12:20:06 PM
Once again what started off as an intersting and useful topic for the climbing community has turned into another boring shit slinging match of bullshit waffle about shit all. Why does it always seem to be the same old same olds who just can't STFU? I feel dirty for even replying to this thread now. Well done guys... well done...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22/12/2011
12:34:31 PM
On 22/12/2011 deadbudgy wrote:
>Once again what started off as an intersting and useful topic for the climbing
>community has turned into another boring shit slinging match of bullshit
>waffle about shit all. Why does it always seem to be the same old same
>olds who just can't STFU? I feel dirty for even replying to this thread
>now. Well done guys... well done...

The topic had run its course, and the threadjack by ODH getting modded provided new impetus?
A skim reader might tune out at the point of threadjack?

Looking forward to a climbing holiday?
~>Happy Christmas deadbudgy!
:-)

Different topic (threadjack [now as long as the original thread] continued)...
Oh, and the real reason I am posting, is that the pedant clock in me has just alarmed-off as being the end of the enforced week-long timeout for ODH!
~> Resume 'intersting and useful topic for the climbing community' (sic), along with anticipated (longed for?), ODH replies to it now!
;-)

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