Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

Author

Climbers rescued Margarine Ridge Mt Hay 6.11.11


rodw

14-Nov-2011
2:20:42 PM

On 14/11/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>I tend to agree with that, however also recognise that there may be grey-area/middle
>ground, and as such I think this sort of thing might diminish somewhat
>if authorities charged for what they consider to be unwarranted 'rescue
>services'; as people might then prepare better (including consideration
>of the weakest link in their team / equipment), and also carefully consider
>the emergency triple 000 bailing option, before hastening to it?

But then you'll have people delay calling in help when they shouldn't have delayed it...very slippery slope indeed.

And fuk paying for it...Id rather the cops spend the money on search and rescue than another patrol car to hide in the bushes with a radar gun.

patto

14-Nov-2011
2:28:01 PM

On 14/11/2011 Simyaz wrote:
>Personally, you couldn't pay me to go do MR again (unless it was in Alien
>cams... I'd do just about anything for more Aliens)

Pssst you can get aliens from two different Spanish suppliers. With the added bonus of them not being FailCams, these are CE approved!

http://www.techrock.es/index.php?mmod=shoptr03

http://totemcams.com/content/index.php?id=1&se=3&su=1307635863


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2011
2:36:06 PM

On 14/11/2011 rodw wrote:
>But then you'll have people delay calling in help when they shouldn't have delayed it...very slippery slope indeed.

Slippery slope?
Yes, but I think it more likely that some numbties will still phone 000 inappropriately, some diehards won't (and possibly live up to their namesake, heh, heh, heh!), and the majority in the middle ground will hopefully at least think about their actions before committing to same?
As it presently stands, there is little incentive to do otherwise?

>And fuk paying for it...Id rather the cops spend the money on search and rescue than another patrol car to hide in the bushes with a radar gun.

That is how they help fund it?

kieranl

14-Nov-2011
2:36:57 PM

Charging for "unwarranted" rescues is another populist bad idea. Essentially anyone taking part in an unusual, risky activity will be at risk here. The topic today on the swing off The Fear shows the direction things could go. How soon before a base jumper or solo climber gets fined for having to be rescued? And solo bushwalkers, or someone who didn't carry an epirb as well as their mobile phone?
Most people are really reluctant to call for help and I'd rather get a few borderline necessary callouts than put up another barrier.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2011
2:41:10 PM

On 14/11/2011 kieranl wrote:
>Charging for "unwarranted" rescues is another populist bad idea. Essentially
>anyone taking part in an unusual, risky activity will be at risk here.
>The topic today on the swing off The Fear shows the direction things could
>go. How soon before a base jumper or solo climber gets fined for having
>to be rescued? And solo bushwalkers, or someone who didn't carry an epirb
>as well as their mobile phone?
>Most people are really reluctant to call for help and I'd rather get a
>few borderline necessary callouts than put up another barrier.

You are probably right kieranl, as when I ponder it further, I recognise that legislation alone won't make 'common sense' magically happen, though I still wonder at how much more prevalent the emergency 000's are done in these modern times of communication vs the self reliance ethic of yesteryear.

kieranl

14-Nov-2011
3:01:07 PM

On 14/11/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>I still wonder at how much more prevalent the emergency 000's are done in these modern
>times of communication vs the self reliance ethic of yesteryear.
From experience, I would say that the number of "soft" rescues is increasing : Walkers "lost" at Arapiles, people tired and demoralised on long climbs, people suffering heat exhaustion (this last is serious but these are usually in the context of people not taking care of themselves).
I look back on them as training exercises.

citationx

14-Nov-2011
3:07:52 PM

On 14/11/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 14/11/2011 kieranl wrote:
>You are probably right kieranl, as when I ponder it further, I recognise
>that legislation alone won't make 'common sense' magically happen, though
>I still wonder at how much more prevalent the emergency 000's are done in these modern
>times of communication vs the self reliance ethic of yesteryear.

The perfect example was on the weekend. I didn't realise that guy fishing fell off a rock platform at maroubra onto a lower one, breaking his ankle in the process, but after being buzzed by a helicopter for around 2 hours curiosity got the best of me and i wandered down to the beach to have a look. This helicopter soon landed in the park and a guy was stretchered out and into a waiting ambulance, guys with rigging and harnesses all over the place.
The ambulance got no further than 50m from the helicopter before it stopped, the guy got out, unassisted, and hopped over to, and got into, his mate's car.
I mean, seriously? 000 and a two-hour helicopter rescue? He was 1km from the carpark anyway. Waste of time and resources. I hope he gets the fuel bill (around $1000+ for that kind of helicopter, I'd estimate)

maxdacat

14-Nov-2011
3:20:09 PM

On 14/11/2011 citationx wrote:
>I mean, seriously? 000 and a two-hour helicopter rescue? He was 1km from
>the carpark anyway. Waste of time and resources. I hope he gets the fuel
>bill (around $1000+ for that kind of helicopter, I'd estimate)

Quite right but unlike climbers, fishers have a political party so their activites won't be curtailed. Hell i even heard they were planning on creating an artificial reef somewhere in nsw by dumping a load of rubble in the sea....just to keep the anglers happy. And parks have the audacity to ban climbing at nth head!

kieranl

14-Nov-2011
3:26:30 PM

On 14/11/2011 citationx wrote:
>... Waste of time and resources. I hope he gets the fuel
>bill (around $1000+ for that kind of helicopter, I'd estimate)
That's a fairly common attitude about climbing rescues by the way.


benjenga

14-Nov-2011
5:44:17 PM

On 10/11/2011 One Day Hero wrote:

>The moral? Learn to eat all different sorts of fruit (and the occasional
>shit sandwich), don't expect the grading system to be perfect, don't assume
>that your particular strengths and weaknesses (and impressions of grades)
>are universal.

Gold, gold, gold.
Good to have you back one day hero.

I did the climb a couple of years ago and it's a classic blue mtns adventure route. We got beat up, sun burnt, finished in the dark, ran out of water but had a rad day. I wouldnt really recommend it to anyone climbing under 18,19 cause there are certain places that you really don't want to fall and belays that you don't want to test.

1. Has anyone climbed the cracks up and to the right above pitch 3???? They look really good.
2. I got off route on the final pitch where the belay bolt Is at the bottom of the dirty, loose chimney. I with straight up, not recommended.

Tex

14-Nov-2011
5:51:32 PM

Are the number of "soft rescues" increasing? Probably, bearing in mind the increase in the number of people participating in all form of outdoor recreation. Add to that improvements in technology (mobile phone reception, PLB's etc). Is it a bad thing though. Let me give a couple scenario's. Solo bushwalker goes out underprepared and get's lost. Option 1: He/she calls 000 early/sets off PLB = Rescue crew go's in and retrieves person (couple of hour task at most). Option 2: Person doesn't call 000/set of PLB = large-scale search operation over many days and involving many personnel. As for the topic at hand (recent Margarine job). Could the pair have self rescued? Possibly, but given the conditions and lack of water they could have attempted to complete the climb with one of them ending up going down from dehydration/heat exhaustion = greater potential for serious injury/illness or even death = more difficult rescue at the end of the day. IMHO, it's more about education. As has already been said, billing for rescue has the potential to lead people to push on and ultimately make the situation worse for all concerned.

climberman

14-Nov-2011
5:55:16 PM

On 14/11/2011 maxdacat wrote:
>On 14/11/2011 citationx wrote:
>>I mean, seriously? 000 and a two-hour helicopter rescue? He was 1km from
>>the carpark anyway. Waste of time and resources. I hope he gets the fuel
>>bill (around $1000+ for that kind of helicopter, I'd estimate)
>
>Quite right but unlike climbers, fishers have a political party so their
>activites won't be curtailed. Hell i even heard they were planning on
>creating an artificial reef somewhere in nsw by dumping a load of rubble
>in the sea....just to keep the anglers happy. And parks have the audacity
>to ban climbing at nth head!

Almost half right and completely wrong.

There are a number of artificial reefs in NSW completed for rec fishing. I think they are out of the recreational fishing trust, which is funded by fishing licence sales. Typically in estuaries they are a bunch of spheres with holes in them, sometimes stacked.

There has recently been sunk a larger steel framed one off Sinny which should support a different species set and angler type.

Rubble is usually used for ports (eg the Kembla expansion) or runways....

Estey

14-Nov-2011
6:03:45 PM

It is easy to criticise climbers for requiring rescue on a route like MR. I'm guessing that it is easy to think you are in control of things until suddenly you really are in trouble.

For those attempting the route, its actually easy to walk off the 1/2 way ledge. Something to consider if you are going a bit slow or the temperature blows out.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2011
6:46:06 PM

There are some interesting flavours coming through on this thread.

Some posters have suggested it was hot on the day, and others have suggested it is better to be 'rescued' early (for a number of reasons), but I am still struggling a bit* with context here, regarding this specific event.
(*I am one who believes spades should be called spades, personal responsibility should be accepted as/when required, and lessons preferably shared after learning, for the benefit of others!)

I really can't believe that the route has not been climbed in high summer, though inadvisable for many as this would seem. By contrast, the day involved was mid twenties temps, which is far from true summer conditions in my opinion.

Being 'rescued' from a location a couple of pitches from the top of a 10 pitch route is not exactly many hours of searching etc, especially as it seems the party involved gave their location accurately?

Earlier in the thread the crux issue was identified (as far as I am concerned); ... that party underestimated and perhaps underprepared for the climb, and their ability to complete it, for whatever reason.
This may have manifested part way through the exercise (water ran out, etc)?
They possibly also overestimated the consequence of spending an uncomfortable night out, once they realised this was a distinct possibility.

Whatever.
It is history now, and hopefully that party, and other potential future parties, will give the climb and their abilities the necessary respect due, regardless of grade or ambition.


shortman

14-Nov-2011
6:55:25 PM

U can't 'whatever' your own comments M9! Ur not a friggin teenager anymore.

;)

All this talk makes me wanna go climb the thing! Sounds right down my alley.
Knock it off in the morning as a warm up!

;)


garbie

14-Nov-2011
7:48:02 PM

On 14/11/2011 shortman wrote:
>U can't 'whatever' your own comments M9! Ur not a friggin teenager anymore.
>
>;)
>
>All this talk makes me wanna go climb the thing! Sounds right down my
>alley.
>Knock it off in the morning as a warm up!
>
>;)
a warm up - lol, why don't you go for the first 35 deg C ascent.

Lots of criticism on this thread, but lots of top climbers have got chopper rides as well - not mentioning any names! Agree with RodW, rather my taxes spent this way than a lot of other ways. I too was a bit surprised at the scale of the outing, but would recommend it to anyone ;)


hangdog

14-Nov-2011
8:14:32 PM

I just spoke with one of the climbers involved in this. She clarified a lot of things for me as it looks like most of the comments are misinformed.
-The 2 climbers concerned were experienced with long trad routes.
-They had spoken at length with the first ascentionist and gained beta from him. They were well aware of the routes difficulties.(route finding and finding the route)
-They started the route early around 8am
-The temp was not hot less than or around 25deg.
-Lack of water was not an issue. They had more than 2 ltrs each ( until they had to bivvy )
-The male climber was ok to start the route and became unwell later in the day, probably flu.
- Was unable to continue climbing safely and as a result called for help.

Hopefully that clears up some of the questions.

One Day Hero

14-Nov-2011
11:01:41 PM

On 14/11/2011 hangdog wrote:
>
>Hopefully that clears up some of the questions.

Not really. Why didn't they just rap to the halfway ledge and walk off? Why didn't the healthy climber lead and the one with 'the flu' second/prussik? They can't have been more than 2 pitchs from the top or 2 raps from the ledge.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2011
11:24:30 PM

On 14/11/2011 shortman wrote:
>U can't 'whatever' your own comments M9! Ur not a friggin teenager anymore.
>
>;)
Obviously not a teenager, but was whatevering the sorry saga, not so much my comments; ... but now it comes to it, include those too, as the thread was losing interest for me then, and is more so now.

>All this talk makes me wanna go climb the thing! Sounds right down my
>alley.
>Knock it off in the morning as a warm up!
>
>;)

The more I have heard of the route the more it appeals to me as well, but I'd be happy to make it an all day affair, ... or maybe an over-nighter with the right partner. Heh, heh, heh.
~> I'd leave the phone at home though, and take extra ~~hipflask~~ water instead!
;-)


IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2011
11:30:26 PM

On 14/11/2011 davidn wrote:
>I suggest everyone calling for a bit of 'harden zee fuch up' and 'post
>more analysis of what you screwed up', that what they need to do is, put
>their money where their mouths are and post some trip reports of epic fuchups,
>no matter how old. Heck, M9 can probably post an account of going on an
>epic in the 1950's!
>
>It'd be a more interesting read at least...

It used to be called climbing, not epic-ing, but in the spirit of things, hereyago, I'll start you off...
"Once I went bouldering and broke my ankle-"

There are 74 messages in this topic.