Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

Author

Accident on Loboff 5/3/2011


Gavo

9-Mar-2011
3:56:09 PM

On 9/03/2011 Wendy wrote:
>On 9/03/2011 gordoste wrote:
>>I find it a bit hard to swallow that the same people who go on and on
>about
>>lack of experience are the first to put the boot in when someone makes
>>a legitimate mistake. If you have never made mistakes and errors of judgement
>>yourself then you are not experienced. Also, your statements can easily
>>be used to support regulation of climbing (or more likely, compulsory
>rescue
>>insurance for outdoor enthusiasts).
>>The process of gaining experience is not a painless one. Constructive
>>ideas on prevention of accidents is great. Suggesting that people have
>>to be certain of success before trying something is really counter-productive.
>>
>
>There's a difference between being certain of success and making sensible
>route choices when pushing your limits. It doesn't take years of experience
>to see that loboff will be pumpy to protect, pulling up to see the crack
>will be strenuous, falling off will result in a pendulum and as a consequence,
>that there are many safer 16s around. This is called using your brain and
>thinking about what you are doing. Just in case people struggle to remember
>to use their brain, i go through this process of decision making with people
>when they are learning to lead, so they understand why some routes are
>better choices than others, but i would have thought it was reasonably
>obvious. If it's not reasonably obvious, then it's just yet another reason
>why it's worth paying for an instructor to learn to lead.

I have to say I disagree with that sentiment.

The idea that there are climbers out there who have never made a decision where IF they fell, they would have been quite badly hurt... I dont believe it.

I think loads of people have been in situations like that.

Plus, if he had never been on a traverse fall, nor seen one, perhaps he genuinely didnt know? Im sure Ive ran out a few traverses Ive been on... Im only a beginner by comparison to most but still...

I get what your saying, I just think its wrong to say that there are climbers who have NEVER EVER put themselves at risk of serious injury because they made perfect judgement the whole time. I think every climber must have made at least one bad call and they more than likely didnt fall off at the point of discovering how bad the decision was.

Thats my own take, maybe Im pessimistic but I think everyone makes more mistakes than they really admit.

I know I do.


..::- Chris -::..

9-Mar-2011
4:11:16 PM

IF you have calculated the risk and are prepared to take that risk then thats OK. If you haven't calculated all the risks , concequences , possible scenareo's and head up the route becuase "It's only a 16" then your asking for trouble.

If your mate looked at the line and said "The traverse will be tricky, gear placement will be hard work, looks like i can get a few cams in here and maybe an RP in here, I'm feeling fit so I'll give it a go" and he fell hurt himeself well then it was unfortunate but his brain was in the right mode, perhaps underestimated the diffculty...

The more aware of the risks , scenarious, the better your chance of success.

I hope he makes a full recovery and continues with his climbing, I must agree with Wendy that some tuition or mentoring might be good. In life we all learn from mistakes, with climbing mistakes can be costly so best to learn, absorb, get coaching, get training, watch others, listen to any advice to elimanate allot of the mistakes before you make them.

Happy and Safe climbing to you both,

Cheers
Chris

Wendy

9-Mar-2011
4:12:16 PM

On 9/03/2011 Gavo wrote:
>I have to say I disagree with that sentiment.
>
>The idea that there are climbers out there who have never made a decision
>where IF they fell, they would have been quite badly hurt... I dont believe
>it.
>
>I think loads of people have been in situations like that.

Of course, this happens all the time. It's unavoidable of some routes, possibly quite a lot of routes. It's about making a judgement that you won't be falling off there when you choose to do the route, choosing to back off before you are really committed if you find yourself somewhere unexpected dicey, holding it together and getting gear, getting the fûck up there or getting back to safe fall zone if you find yourself in a truly bad position.
>
>Plus, if he had never been on a traverse fall, nor seen one, perhaps he
>genuinely didnt know? Im sure Ive ran out a few traverses Ive been on...
>Im only a beginner by comparison to most but still...
>

It might be 20+ years since I did physics, but I can still see what will happen.

And on running out traverses (or anything for that matter) when in doubt, placing gear is not going to hurt. You might get more pumped and fall off but if you run it out hoping to not fall off and fall off anyway, well, here are the consequences. If falling is going to have bad consequences, stopping to place gear is well worth it. That's another one of those reasonably obvious things that people seem to miss - how often to you see a struggling leader starting to push their limits just going for it and passing up good gear in places where it's not appropriate? As a belayer, you can also ask your leader to bung more gear in when necessary and save both of you a lot of pain later.


gordoste

9-Mar-2011
4:34:23 PM

Totally agree Wendy that if you are pushing your limit then you should be placing more gear not less. In this particular case he had led it previously with no problem and therefore didn't expect any problems (quite reasonable imho). In future he might make the same decision but would probably wear a helmet to reduce the potential consequences.


ajfclark

9-Mar-2011
4:36:59 PM

Here's a few notes about traverses and pro for the second: http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/tech_tips_swing_time/

and a bit more by the same guy: http://climbinghouse.com/2011/02/protect-the-follower.html

rolsen1

9-Mar-2011
4:39:16 PM

On 9/03/2011 Gavo wrote:
>I have to say I disagree with that sentiment.
>
>The idea that there are climbers out there who have never made a decision
>where IF they fell, they would have been quite badly hurt... I dont believe
>it.

Of course, there is a huge difference between running it out cause there is no gear options and choosing not to place gear.

On 7/03/2011 Gavo wrote:
>noone else was injured, just his belayer was understandably shaken but
>he did everything right. He caught the fall well and called for help, though
>we arrived soon after and Larry was sitting up, coherent and keeping pressure
>on his head.

I also think that a belayer that "does everything right" should be communicating with the leader about possible consequences of the leader's actions. Asking questions like, "should you place something", "how are you feeling" "how are the moves" "can you down climb" and also offer encouragement if they sense the leader is struggling

A good belayer should help to minimise the leader's mistakes, although this may happened it hasn't been noted here.

Edit: and if you don't have a good belayer don't do climbs at your limit


IdratherbeclimbingM9

9-Mar-2011
8:32:29 PM

On 9/03/2011 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>In life we all learn from mistakes, with climbing mistakes can be costly so best
>to learn, absorb, get coaching, get training, watch others, listen to any
>advice to elimanate allot of the mistakes before you make them.
>
... and if the positive feedback is taken from the posts on this thread, it could help to add to the knowledge bank / lessening the learning curve.

As an aside, I have learnt from this thread to start to wonder about deliberately placing myself in some of the situations I have gotten away with!

rolsen1

9-Mar-2011
9:08:00 PM

On 9/03/2011 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>As an aside, I have learnt from this thread to start to wonder about deliberately
>placing myself in some of the situations I have gotten away with!

No doubt most people here occasionally take calculated risks but we all do it knowing our abilities and limitations and identify the consequences if things go wrong.

Having said that, if you end up with broken bones or worse, I'd say the lesson to be learnt is pretty clear.


shortman

9-Mar-2011
9:35:28 PM

On 9/03/2011 rolsen1 wrote:

>No doubt most people here occasionally take calculated risks but we all
>do it knowing our abilities and limitations and identify the consequences
>if things go wrong.
>
>Having said that, if you end up with broken bones or worse, I'd say the
>lesson to be learnt is pretty clear.

Really? What is clear?

kieranl

9-Mar-2011
9:52:26 PM

On 9/03/2011 rolsen1 wrote:
>No doubt most people here occasionally take calculated risks but we all
>do it knowing our abilities and limitations and identify the consequences
>if things go wrong.
>
Christ on crutches! I didn't realise we were such a smart bunch.
This exemplifies the smug, self-satisfied preaching on this thread that is frankly nauseating.
Have none of you people been a bit reckless, got away with it then realised what you've done? If so you're unlike just about any climbers that I've mixed with, even the very safe ones.


Sarah Gara

9-Mar-2011
10:11:45 PM

On 9/03/2011 bl@ke wrote:
> I was Larrys second the first time he did Loboff. I chose to back off
>once I was at the start of the traverse and able to see the pendulum I
>could face if I fell.

I'm really pleased about that Blake -good call.

So did he not put gear in the first time he did it either?

Hope Larry is recovering well. x

One Day Hero

9-Mar-2011
10:18:02 PM

I'm with the K-man on this one, 100%

People who are lucky convince themselves that their skill and judgement bring success, those with poor skills and bad judgement are sure that they have bad luck................the reality, for most, is probably somewhere inbetween.

Two cracked ribs, a wrist cast, and a scar over the eye is still a pretty cheap lesson. I'm sure Larry has learned a lot from this episode, where's the drama?

One Day Hero

9-Mar-2011
10:28:25 PM

There's something which has always bothered me a bit with regard to protecting traverses.

The advice which is always given is for the leader to clip gear with the gates facing away from the direction they are traversing. But on a horizontal traverse, there's no difference between leading and seconding...............so, the poor bloody second has exactly the same fall potential as the leader, with the added bonus of back-clipped draws whose gates facing towards them! And, most probably, the joy of removing gear just before the crux to leave a big loop of unclipped rope across the subsequent easy terrain!

What a scam!

The lesson is; always preplan the day so that its your lead when the traversing pitches come round.


cruze

9-Mar-2011
10:58:34 PM

On 9/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>People who are lucky convince themselves that their skill and judgement
>bring success, those with poor skills and bad judgement are sure that they
>have bad luck................the reality, for most, is probably somewhere
>inbetween.
Since we can't do anything about luck, and we aren't always climbing well within our skill level then judgement is crucial. Yep I completely agree that it was a bit rich to stand on my soap box earlier but taking time to make sensible judgement calls and know when to back-off, plug in more gear or gun it will help you have a long happy climbing career with as few injuries as possible. I hope that Larry gets better soon and doesn't have any lasting injuries.


Gavo

9-Mar-2011
11:46:56 PM

On 9/03/2011 kieranl wrote:
>Christ on crutches! I didn't realise we were such a smart bunch.
>This exemplifies the smug, self-satisfied preaching on this thread that
>is frankly nauseating.
>Have none of you people been a bit reckless, got away with it then realised
>what you've done? If so you're unlike just about any climbers that I've
>mixed with, even the very safe ones.

THANKYOU! That is what I was saying all along!!! Ive (and I admit Im not a model for safety in general) made a million little decisions in my life that if circumstances allowed would result in my death.

FFS, if someone trips over climbing down the back of Piccolo and tumbles to their death.. will they be judged by people saying they should have been belayed down instead of downclimbing it like 99.9% of the climbing population???

And its not even just for climbing! How many people ALWAYS pull over and sleep the moment they feel tired driving. Or who follow every safety protocol in every thing they do.

Im not saying its ok to cut corners, but I dont think there is a person alive, besides the 40 year old virgin, who doesnt at some stage.

I dont think he deserves all this judgement to be honest. Discussion is fair enough but at times it seems borderline personal attack on his capabilities and thats bloody bullshit. One fuchup and a person isnt experienced or capable?

And yes Sara, Larry did put in ALL gear on his first climb

Wendy

10-Mar-2011
8:06:38 AM

Woo hoo, I'm a nauseating preacher now! There is absolutely no doubt that most of us have done some damn stupid things in our time. That our survival was stronger evidence for the God that Looks after the Foolish than any religion can come up with. I just don't think that this has to be the case.

Back in the day, people had pretty poor idea of teaching, how to go about it, what to go through, how quickly to progress. People often didn't even have teachers and just went out and bumbled round til they worked something out. There was a strong culture of sandbagging and hard men and just toughening up.
Lots of experienced climbers now wander around saying, yeah, I did that, learnt like that, made that mistake, got scared silly, nearly died, but look at me, i'm all ok, it's good for them, it's what climbing's all about. It's a bit like the "my dad hit me and it didn't do me any harm" argument.
We know better. Appropriate teaching and mentoring, looking out for each other and encouraging good decisions can avoid lots of learning the hard way. it may be immensely boring of me, but i'd rather not have the strings of entertaining stories of stupid things we did whilst young (or not so young) and foolish be quite so abundant in the future.

I got started on the rant because I thought under rolsen's sarcasm, there was a good point about the lessons to be learnt getting hidden under the usual helmet argument.


nmonteith

10-Mar-2011
8:43:57 AM

Pendulums are bad - sometimes even potentially worse than ground falls. For example, if you are traversing away from a corner and you put no gear in then fall off - you body will hit the corner with all the force of hitting the ground, but instead you strike with the side of your body - the soft flabby bit holding all your important organs. On a normal ground fall you land feet first - breaking ankles, legs etc - but this rarely causes death. Squashing internal organs on the other hand...

Wendy

10-Mar-2011
8:44:20 AM

And while I'm ranting, I'm going to paraphrase ODH.

Loboff is a farching worthless piece of mank!

If any of you find yourself with an overwhelming desire to lead it, hit yourself over the head with a wet fish and get over it! Climbing does involve some degree of risk. There are routes in the world that might be worth taking somewhat more risks for. Loboff is so not one of them! Go and treat yourself to the abundent quality routes at the same grade to be had at the Mt - Yoyo, Saracen, Dirge, Watchtower Crack, Libretto, Iphegenia etc etc.

Take the whole of the Plaque area in your guidebook and use it as ES would recommend. Go to Bushrangers instead. The climbing is so much better for equally accessible single pitch easy-moderates.


Gavo

10-Mar-2011
8:56:33 AM

On 10/03/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Woo hoo, I'm a nauseating preacher now!

Wasnt directed at you Wendy. You admitted further up that people do dumb things sometimes or rather, everyone has done something out of line.

It was more (well I interpret it as more) directed at people making bold statements that every single risk in a "good" climbers life is assessed, calculated, validated, processed (edit:) and negated during every moment of a climb. That apparent attitude is what gets to me and I think K as well.

Noone, at least certainly not me, is arguing that there are lessons to be learnt and things could be done better.

What Im saying is... I bet you follow any single climber around for a year with a video camera and you will spot something which a thread like this could be started on should the crap have hit the fan.

Definitely would be better to have less injuries in the future as opposed to now or the past. Think we are mostly in agreement


Gavo

10-Mar-2011
8:58:00 AM

On 10/03/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Take the whole of the Plaque area in your guidebook and use it as ES would
>recommend. Go to Bushrangers instead. The climbing is so much better
>for equally accessible single pitch easy-moderates.

Maximus is ok and had good gear!

But I take your point, its not the best area to be had.

There are 85 messages in this topic.