Report Accidents and Injuries

Author	Factor 2
PATW 20-Apr-2010 7:53:42 PM	>The belayer should be in full control here. >If the leader won't put in that piece of "JESUS" gear just pull on the reins and stop >them climbing. >If climbing with a newbie, set that 1st piece while building the anchor. >I try to build a multi-point anchor above the belay and use it as a pulley point. This >way the 2nd already has the critical 1st piece in when swinging leads. I like your suggestion kayakerSteve. One of the hard things about trying to coach an inexperienced climber is doing it in a way that takes care of the essentials for safety but doesn't involve constant critique/suggestions/nagging to the point that it detracts from the enjoyment of the climb. It's nice to be encouraging and allow a new leader to climb with confidence and find "the stoke" on lead for themselves. Placing Jesus beforehand means one less thing to nag about as they set off. In this case, of course it would have been a good idea to pull up and insist that my fearless leader stop and put that piece in. Another mistake was that I also had the opportunity to tell her "DO NOT FALL!" as she started to look sketchy. It was obvious that the cam placement was pretty bogus. Instead I said something foolishly encouraging like "Alright, just go. Keep moving. I've got you". I honestly didn't think she was going to come off. Ha! There's a strong case for belayers delivering the awful truth to a climber leading into a dangerous situation rather than keeping up the "yeah, you can do it" stuff. Always better to rationally consider the risks than blindly forge on. Ya live an learn, eh?
Olbert 21-Apr-2010 10:18:29 AM	On 20/04/2010 PATW wrote: >There's a strong case for belayers delivering the awful truth to a climber >leading into a dangerous situation Do you really want to say this to a struggling beginner leader? My friends have been in a situation where a climber has made a poor decision and as a result completely lost there head. It was commented by the leader afterwards that the fact that the belayer stayed calm and confident (or so the leader thinks) it really helped him keep him in it. I think telling an inexperienced leader not to fall is the most useless and possibly deadly piece of advice possible. In my experience falling for a beginner on top rope is extremely scarey and they try very hard not to fall. When on lead they will do all that is physically possible not to fall. Telling them they can not fall means they now have the certainty of death when falling, not just the possibility (all beginners think they are gonna die if they weight the rope - no matter the situation). This will not help. It may destroy the last remnants of calmness and the ability to think clearly. I dont think the belayer should give blind encouragement - that could be deadly to an inexperienced leader. I also dont think a belayer should give the awful truth to an inexperienced leader - could completely and utterly shatter them and cause them to fall. The belayer should keep calm and give rational advice, keeping in mind the consequences of a fall and what would happen. They are the experienced one and should know what to do. POST EDIT: I clearly been misunderstood here. I am talking about beginner leaders. BEGINNER. Not sport climbers having a go at trad. If they can reasonably take fall on sport then they are no longer beginner. In the situation with my friends it was clear the inexperienced leader was already doing all in his power not to fall. The belayer telling him not to fall would not have helped. The belayer giving calm helpful advice did!
nmonteith 21-Apr-2010 10:31:53 AM	On 21/04/2010 Olbert wrote: >I think telling an inexperienced leader not to fall is the most useless >and possibly deadly piece of advice possible. I think with the advent of sport climbing and endless 'safe' falls people have become too blase about falling off on trad gear. I've seen people launch up trad routes on gear that others have placed and lob off blindly trusting someone elses decisions. Really bad form and potentially disastrous. I have no qualms about telling people they are in a dangerous position and that trad gear won't always hold a fall.
egosan 21-Apr-2010 10:48:25 AM	On 21/04/2010 nmonteith wrote: . >I have no qualms about telling people they are in a dangerous position >and that trad gear won't hold always hold a fall. I am with Neil on this one. Having "belayed" a leader who through poor decision making climbed the crux of a route where they would deck from 10m if they failed. Luck was with us, shaking and pumped out of his mind he pulled the roof. I could have intervened early telling him to stop and put in more gear. I did not and regret it. By the time he was in the crux it was no time to tell him he needed gear. Speak up early.
ZERO 21-Apr-2010 11:25:31 AM	>to coach an inexperienced climber is doing it in a way that takes care >of the essentials for safety but doesn't involve constant critique/suggestions/nagging > I have taught several experienced sport climbers to lead on trad this summer. I like to have the knowledge that the leader can build an absolutely bomber anchor. This takes time and lots of practice, and increases the pleasure of climbing. I also consider it important to tell them that every climbing partner will have minor variations on atheme, but they must learn enough of these variations to judge what is a good or dangerous anchor, I would rather nag than clean up the mess.
Olbert 21-Apr-2010 12:21:36 PM	I should clarify on this one. I am talking about climbers who are inexperienced leaders full stop. Not sport climbers having a go at leading trad. In both Neils and Egosans situation I would have told the climber they are getting into the 'no fall zone'. I agree that you should tell sport climbers lobbing willy nilly onto trad gear of the danger they are in or if they have inadequately protected through poor decision making. I think that telling an experienced sport climber he shouldnt fall is a hell of a lot different to freaking out an inexperienced climber with the truth.
patto 21-Apr-2010 4:05:17 PM	On 21/04/2010 Olbert wrote: >Do you really want to say this to a struggling beginner leader? My friends >have been in a situation where a climber has made a poor decision and as >a result completely lost there head. It was commented by the leader afterwards >that the fact that the belayer stayed calm and confident (or so the leader >thinks) it really helped him keep him in it. Um well yes. Most certainly. That is not to say the belayer shouldn't remain calm. But if the climber is a beginner then all the more reason to tell them if they are not aware of the situation. If the climber is not a beginner then hopefully there is very little need to tell them about their gear. >I think telling an inexperienced leader not to fall is the most useless >and possibly deadly piece of advice possible. I further disagree. While if it is obvious then stating it isn't going to help, but some beginners who are used to sport climbing may 'choose' to fall under not ideal circumstances. If you foresee this occuring then you should advise against it. Of course this all comes under what I call common sense. You don't say "You'll be f---ed if you fall now mate", you instead say "How about you down climb to the ledge there" or "Might want to think about getting some gear in while you are there." >Telling them they can not fall means they now have the certainty >of death when falling, not just the possibility (all beginners think they >are gonna die if they weight the rope - no matter the situation). Overly dramatic? Also I don't no many beginner leaders who have this little faith in the equipment. I certainly would never have gotten onto the sharp end if I thought I was going to die if I weighted the rope! Shouting endless encouragement is a sport climber thing and it shoudn't just be done blindly in trad climbing. Its hard to comment on but for PATW in may have been more appropriate to recognise that the leader was struggling, recognise that the gear was crap and encouraged the leader to down climb. Down climbing if it was possible probably should have been seen as the first option after having difficulty placing gear and difficult climbing on.
Olbert 21-Apr-2010 8:09:18 PM	On 21/04/2010 patto wrote: >On 21/04/2010 Olbert wrote: >>I think telling an inexperienced leader not to fall is the most useless >>and possibly deadly piece of advice possible. >I further disagree. While if it is obvious then stating it isn't going >to help, but some beginners who are used to sport climbing may 'choose' >to fall under not ideal circumstances. If you foresee this occuring then >you should advise against it. Im talking about beginners who are not used to sport climbing, as I have stated above! Even so, I have never seen a beginner leader, even on solid shiny ring bolts, be happy and willing to take a fall - ever! There is a large difference between knowing logically that the protection will hold (Im talking in general) and being confident enough to lob off. What Im saying is that no true beginner leader will ever 'choose' to take a fall. They will always do all in their power not to fall - telling them not to fall doesnt mean they will try harder. I have only ever seen an inexperienced leader take a fall on a sport climb after much encouragement to move past the last bolt and into uncertain territory. An experienced belayer, belaying an inexperienced leader on a trad climb should not encourage in the same manner - trad is a very different game then sport. In my opinion if they are happy enough to lob off on sport then they are not a beginner - they are a sport climber who is trying trad. As such it is useful to tell them they are in the 'no fall zone'. They should be able to handle this information and act accordingly. Telling a beginner trad climber they are in the 'no fall zone' will most likely freak them out even more. Telling them "Downclimb to the nearest ledge" is completely different! - it helps! I definitely agree with giving them useful advice. >Of course this all comes under what I call common sense. You don't say >"You'll be f---ed if you fall now mate", you instead say "How about you >down climb to the ledge there" or "Might want to think about getting some >gear in while you are there." > >>Telling them they can not fall means they now have the certainty >>of death when falling, not just the possibility (all beginners think >they >>are gonna die if they weight the rope - no matter the situation). >Overly dramatic? Also I don't no many beginner leaders who have this >little faith in the equipment. I certainly would never have gotten onto >the sharp end if I thought I was going to die if I weighted the rope! When was the last beginner climber you saw - sport or trad - that was completely happy and confident to lob onto gear? Their non-logical mind is telling them "DONT FALL DONT FALL DONT FALL" even if the logical part is saying "You are completely safe, the gear (sport or trad) is fine". Once the logical part also says "That gear is shit - it wont hold" any semblance of calmness they had will be gone. What Im saying is, try to keep them as calm and in control as possible. >Shouting endless encouragement is a sport climber thing and it shoudn't >just be done blindly in trad climbing. Its hard to comment on but for >PATW in may have been more appropriate to recognise that the leader was >struggling, recognise that the gear was crap and encouraged the leader >to down climb. Down climbing if it was possible probably should have been >seen as the first option after having difficulty placing gear and difficult >climbing on. I completely agree. I havent stated differently. I think I keep being misunderstood...or maybe Im just crap at stating my position. I agree completely that you should give sage advice like "downclimb to the nearest ledge," or "think about putting in another piece." I, however, dont think you should tell an inexperienced leader "dont fall."
IdratherbeclimbingM9 21-Apr-2010 8:15:15 PM	On 19/04/2010 PATW wrote: >Thought I'd share a recent experience of a "Factor 2" fall with the hope >that anyone interested may learn from it: > Excellent feedback. Thanks for sharing PATW. I hope you have a speedy recovery and that your partner continues to 'grow' in the climbing experience without mishap.
kieranl 21-Apr-2010 9:15:22 PM	Anything above the belayer is useful to reduce the force of the fall. Clip the highest part of the belay, place shoddy gear if that is all you can get. Keith Egerton once stripped everything off the second pitch of Dream at Buffalo back to the belay bolt from around 6 or 7 metres up. I was sitting on the little ledge lashed to a big tube in the horizontal at ledge level and the old carrot which would have been above my head as I was sitting. A string of shoddy wires ripped, seemingly with no resistance and he ended up below me. We got away with no injuries apart from a graze or two. I am sure that the gear ripping absorbed some of the impact force and sitting down meant that there was about 1.5 metres of rope between the belay device and the bolt belay/runner. The little things can make a difference.
stuart h 22-Apr-2010 1:23:17 AM	I have also taken a factor two fall. It was a fall that, although unexpected, should have been reasonably straightforward but I snapped the wires on a nest of RPs that was the only protection and went all the way to fall directly onto the belay. It was certainly dramatic and memorable and I regularly reflect on how grateful I am that Phil was able to maintain the belay and hold the fall, saving me just a few feet from enormous consequences. I don’t want to enter into the discussion about approaches to coaching or the role of the belayer or the benefits of downclimbing or whether there is really a good, rational reason not to clip a piece of fixed protection on a standard cragging pitch that has unfolded here, but my experience of high impact falls and your description of this fall reinforce my views about a few basic considerations. Above all else, factor 2 falls are serious events which take the physics of climbing to the limits of equipment and body tolerance and should be avoided at all costs. My fall would have been a high factor fall in any case, but after it broke the RPs and became a factor 2 the section of the rope where the fall was held felt totally ‘gutted’ or ‘crushed’. Even weeks after the event this section was notably thinner and hollow or ‘dead’ – luckily I get lots of use out of short ropes. Perhaps the single biggest danger of factor 2 falls, especially in Victoria where we tend to have excellent protection available to build bombproof anchors, is that the impact force on the belayer and the belay hand may be so large as to cause enough movement for the belayer to lose control. In my fall the force dragged Phil’s hand hard against the device and the rope ran across the back of his hand leaving a substantial burn scar. This is echoed in descriptions here of nasty rope burns and would be exacerbated if the belayer were not tight beneath the anchor as he or she could be jerked from their stance. Anything which reduces the fall factor and ensures that the belayer is lifted upwards, resulting in a much more manageable fall than being jerked downwards is a significant improvement in the overall security of the system. “Bagotup” refers to the “reasons you can read up on” for not “clipping in through a piece of the anchor system,” which presumably refers to the fact that the piece that holds a fall is subject to a greater overall load, relative to an anchor loaded directly downwards, because of a pulley effect. Someone with a greater knowledge of and enthusiasm for physics might be able to explain the difference between tension and impact force, but I think two things are important: one, that an upward force, where everything loads in the direction expected and the belayer’s body is pulled against gravity to dissipate a lot of force, is much easier to hold than a factor 2 fall, however much less tension there might be on the specific component of the anchor in the latter case; and two, that we routinely fall onto individual pieces of protection, which are, on the whole, clearly capable of withstanding these forces (my own snapped RPs notwithstanding), and this revelation, coupled with John Long’s revelations about the relative ineffectiveness of most ‘equalisation’ strategies, highlights that the multiple components in an anchor are really generally functioning for redundancy rather than load sharing. The upshot of this seems to be that the potential problems of clipping part of the anchor as a runner are far outweighed by the risk of a factor two fall in the ordinary course of events. If a factor two fall is actually a possibility – something which probably should be deliberately and consciously accepted or avoided rather than being the sort of thing that happens by accident – or the anchors are questionable, then strategies for retreat should probably be the climbers’ focus. If you are really going to expose yourself to questionable anchors or high impact falls, incorporating shock absorbing elements (first of all the belayer’s body, then perhaps ‘screamer’ type slings) into the system can help stack the odds in your favour. All these years later I still say to Phil, as I say to my partners too regularly, “good catch, thankyou.” Whatever else might have been done differently, good catch – I hope you recover quickly from your injuries.
Wendy 22-Apr-2010 7:27:22 AM	The thing about this that keeps striking me, is why did we end up wih a beginner leader on Lamlighter in the first place? The primary task of a beginner leader is to learn to place gear. They should not be on anything even remotely physically challenging until they can place solid gear with ease. I continually see and hear about beginners either starting at or too rapidly progressing to harder grades. I guess it's part of a general grade obsession that does exist in climbing, but it really is one area where ego needs to be thrown out the window and super easy climbs, even easier than you might normally consider easy, are the best places to just learn about placing gear and managing ropes. It takes a lot more than 1 or 2 climbs to do that. 14 may sound easy, but as discovered, it's not easy enough. Obviously,that one's a relatively long, sustained and exposed pitch, but I would expect a beginner leader to struggle on other "easy" around that grade, like Toccata, Kestral, Siamese Crack, Gecko, Touchstone, Bard ... There are lots of fantastic routes here below 10. Use and enjoy them.
Sarah Gara 22-Apr-2010 9:07:14 AM	Glad you both (reasonably) ok. Very Brave. I didn't like that first bit of the 2nd pitch - wouldn't feel comfortable leading that. Good on your GF for getting back on the horse so to speak. However I do agree with Wendy's comment above. Hard pitch for a beginner leader esp. first mulit pitch. Learnt a lot from your experience -I don't place a Jesus piece -not heard that expression before - but I do place gear pretty soon after leaving. Will consider that more and clipping to belays also ( I do do this sometimes) I agree also with the "don't fall" thing -not helpful "hold on" is a much better way of saying the same thing - but difficult habit to get into. Thanks for sharing x
bluey 22-Apr-2010 10:42:52 AM	Hey Patw, Wow, what an experience. I remember that move being a bit interesting off the ledge there and the gear spot not nearly as promising as it looked from the bottom. My mate had an epic on that pitch and I've heard about so many other sagas on Lamplighter....I don't think I would have sent your new leader up there myself. But it's a great route tho...hard to resist. To the tech heads out there, I had thought that a true factor 2 fall (i.e. plummet directly past the anchor without being slowed by a popping piece of gear) means you should retire the rope afterwards.....is that right? or have I just made that up???
gordoste 22-Apr-2010 10:55:21 AM	A good story, it sounds like you both learnt from the experience. As others have said, most experienced leaders make a rule of placing a piece of gear ASAP. I have a tip to share which I'd be interested on hearing people's opinions about. Often trad belays have one piece of gear which is a bit higher than the others. If that's the case I often clip that as my first piece of gear. It needs to be some distance above the belay device otherwise it won't help reduce the fall factor much (a metre at a bare minimum and more if at all possible). It can help a lot to get your belayer to sit below the anchor rather than right next to it, especially since many Araps ledges have multiple tiers.
dimpet 22-Apr-2010 10:57:21 AM	So is it better to belay the leader from the anchor or from the seconders harness?
patto 22-Apr-2010 11:49:59 AM	On 22/04/2010 dimpet wrote: >So is it better to belay the leader from the anchor or from the seconders >harness? Could you please rephrase that question. Because I'm a little scared if you mean it how it sounds.
dimpet 22-Apr-2010 11:55:17 AM	So your about to start the second pitch. Seconder is safe on the anchor point directly with a screwgate. Does the seconder belay the leader from there harness or directly from the anchor point? I have always got my seconders to belay from there harness but now I have heard its better to belay directly from the anchor. Which is better?
evanbb 22-Apr-2010 11:57:12 AM	Wasn't this discussed further up the page? Belay a leader off your harness. Always I would say. Belay your second off the anchor. I do it off my harness sometimes too, mostly so I can sit on the edge when the anchor is a long way back. But, with some fiddling you can belay off the anchor from a long way away.
patto 22-Apr-2010 12:06:32 PM	On 22/04/2010 dimpet wrote: >So your about to start the second pitch. Seconder is safe on the anchor >point directly with a screwgate. >Does the seconder belay the leader from there harness or directly from >the anchor point? >I have always got my seconders to belay from there harness but now I have >heard its >better to belay directly from the anchor. Which is better? > It sounds like you existing method is fine. I'm a little confused about how you can provide a effective lead belay if you are belaying directly off the anchor. I might be mistaken but I think you are getting something mixed up here. I don't think any body here is suggesting anybody give a lead belay from anywhere but the harness.

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.

Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints