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Grounder at SICG


MonkeyBoy

12-Oct-2009
9:34:14 AM

Any one know how Lyndon is going ?

DaveN

12-Oct-2009
11:10:50 PM

On 12/10/2009 MonkeyBoy wrote:
>Any one know how Lyndon is going ?

I got an email last week (Thursday) from someone who knows him, This is what past of it said -

"Lindon is ok aside from a broken/shattered heel & torn Achilles tendon.

He is going in to surgery tomorrow..."

Strangely enough - a lot of us who climb at SICG will know Lindon as the guy that climbed at the gym
earlier in the year with a girl who had a broken ankle - and she climbed with it in plaster. She was quite
determined and she climbed quite well considering.

Dave


monkeyboy

13-Oct-2009
8:53:30 AM

Yeah I know the leg in question, I have also worked through a couple of bouldering problems with Lydon and never knew his name.

patto

18-Oct-2009
10:15:00 PM

RECALL NOTICE FOR AUTO BELAYS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Effective October 14, 2009

MSA the manufacturer of Redpoint Descenders has issued a STOP USE NOTICE issued for all Redpoint Descenders (Part Numbers 10024873,10027646, AND 10027798) - REGARDLESS OF THE DATE THE UNIT WAS MANUFACTURED OR LAST FACTORY SERVICED. (read the full notice from MSA the Manufacturer).

We will not be taking orders or shipping and Redpoint Descenders until the manufacturer (MSA) completes further investigation into the reasons for the Stop Use Notice and has rectified the cause for the Stop Use Notice.

http://www.climbingwallindustry.org/docs/msa_08040-08_stop-use_notice.pdf

http://www.redpointdescender.com/


BundyBear

19-Oct-2009
1:50:40 PM

Not the 1st time these products have been recalled

June 3, 2005
Alert #05-578
CPSC, MSA Announce Recall of Climbing Wall Descenders

The following product safety recall was conducted voluntarily by the firm in cooperation with the CPSC. Customers should stop using the product immediately unless otherwise instructed.

Name of Product: Redpoint™ and Auto-Belay Descenders

Units: 783

Manufacturer: Mine Safety Appliances Co. (MSA), of Pittsburgh, Pa.

Hazard: This product, which assists wall climbers during descent, has a faulty bearing that can cause the brakes to fail. When this occurs, wall climbers risk rapid descent with no braking capability.

Incidents/Injuries: MSA has received three reports of Redpoint Descenders' brakes failing. One fall resulted in a cracked vertebra. Other injuries include bruised ribs and a sprained ankle.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05578.html

kip

23-Oct-2009
11:13:27 AM

I got this email through SCA. This came via Climbing Wall Association, which is a based in Colarado. Thought you might be interested

Boulder, Colorado; October 15, 2009
Redpoint (tm) and Auto-Belay Descenders

MSA issued a stop use notice dated 14/10/2009 for certain products described below. MSA very recently became aware of two incidents where climbers using Redpoint Descenders experienced rapid rates of descent resulting in injuries. MSA's preliminary investigation indicates an issue with the one-way bearings provided by their supplier, which may prevent the brakes from engaging during descent. Due to the nature of this condition, the users were not able to detect the problem before the rapid descents occurred.

The Stop Use Notice applies to the following descender units:
• All Redpoint Descenders (part numbers 10024873, 10027646, and 10027798) regardless of the date the unit was manufactured or last serviced
• Auto-Belay Descenders (part number 10021806) manufactured or last serviced on or after June 30, 2000.

The part number, date of manufacture, and date of last factory service of the unit is located on the white date of manufacture label affixed to the back of the housing.
Based on these findings, MSA is advising affected users to discontinue using the Redpoint and Auto-Belay Descenders indicated above. Please forward this notice to all appropriate personnel.

MSA regrets this inconvenience; however, the company recognizes that this condition represents a potential safety concern. MSA will issue a follow-up notice shortly, after conducting further investigation into this matter. During the investigation, MSA will not be shipping any Redpoint Descenders currently on order or in for service, and will not be taking any new orders.

If you have any questions, please contact MSA Customer Service at 1-800-MSA-2222 or 412-967-3000. If you would like to view the original notice it is HERE.

END


deadbudgy

23-Oct-2009
1:23:00 PM

No matter what they do to remedy this problem I don't think I will ever want to use them again. It just isn't woth it.

Duncan

23-Oct-2009
1:28:05 PM

Someone's gonna get sued.


bluey

23-Oct-2009
2:32:55 PM

Are these the same things Anaconda use for their kiddy climbing walls? Hope they are taking note.

I was sent up one of those when trying out a new harness and HATED having to sit back on the cable at the top without feeling it take my weight. Very weird. Much prefer feeling the tight rope of a trusted belayer on the way down, than leaving my arse in the hands of that mechanical thingo.


anthonyk

23-Oct-2009
4:38:06 PM

On 23/10/2009 Duncan wrote:
>Someone's gonna get sued.

its happened before. someone in the US sued a gym or the manufacturer (possibly different brand/product) for more than $2 million. don't have the link on hand but it came up pretty easy when i was looking at stuff about autobelays


ado_m

23-Oct-2009
6:14:43 PM

The lonely man belay devices are farking scary even when they do work. Real leap of faith.

But then, I wonder how many people have been dropped by the second? Probably a lot more proportionally.


rodw

23-Oct-2009
7:20:22 PM

The US legal system allows for much bigger damages than does the local legal system....Id doubt locally you could sue them for much...especially since they are an overseas company.


trog

23-Oct-2009
7:25:48 PM

On 23/10/2009 ado_m wrote:
>The lonely man belay devices are farking scary even when they do work.
> Real leap of faith.
>
>But then, I wonder how many people have been dropped by the second? Probably
>a lot more proportionally.
>

Every night at SICG there are a hell of a lot more belayed climbers than auto-might-be-belayed, and I haven't heard of too many serious top rope incidents. And the ones I have heard of have been things like clipping into gear loops... just as easy to do on the auto-might-belays.

Any gym workers on chocky who can comment on how often top rope climbers get dropped?

dave

23-Oct-2009
7:27:15 PM

On 23/10/2009 bluey wrote:
>Are these the same things Anaconda use for their kiddy climbing walls?
>Hope they are taking note.
>
>I was sent up one of those when trying out a new harness and HATED having
>to sit back on the cable at the top without feeling it take my weight.
>Very weird. Much prefer feeling the tight rope of a trusted belayer on
>the way down, than leaving my arse in the hands of that mechanical thingo.

No the Anaconda ones are different, I think they have the same as the ones mentioned earlier in this thread
http://www.extremeengineering.com/climbing-wall-auto-belays.aspx

Pretty sure the ones in Sydney were tape rather than cable (?)


garbie

24-Oct-2009
5:59:49 PM

On 23/10/2009 trog wrote:
>
>Every night at SICG there are a hell of a lot more belayed climbers than
>auto-might-be-belayed, and I haven't heard of too many serious top rope
>incidents. And the ones I have heard of have been things like clipping
>into gear loops... just as easy to do on the auto-might-belays.
>
>Any gym workers on chocky who can comment on how often top rope climbers
>get dropped?

We haven't had a toproping accident at St Peters, apart from the odd scrape. With the setup we have (with a slo-go at the top) its pretty hard to get into serious trouble - though certainly not impossible.

With the amount of leading that gets done here now - its really taken off - it was inevitable that mistakes would happen and indeed there were the two gri-gri related accidents (smashed heels in both cases) and the broken ankle when someone skipped a draw on purpose, then hit a jug awkwardly when they swung back into the gently overhanging wall. So until Lyndon's accident only belayer or climber mistakes have led to accidents, and considering the amount of climbing that gets done here, they have happened pretty rarely - less often than at the crag (per climb) I'd have thought.

The real battle for us is to keep people mindful of the inherent risks especially in leading, and to get them to be careful - I think people are more relaxed and less on their guard indoors - but gravity works much the same way. It feels like a safer environment and there can be more distractions. All I can say to people is be careful, take it seriously, and relax when you get to the pub.


anthonyk

25-Oct-2009
2:08:52 AM

On 24/10/2009 garbie wrote:
>With the amount of leading that gets done here now - its really taken
>off - it was inevitable that mistakes would happen and indeed there were
>the two gri-gri related accidents (smashed heels in both cases) and the
>broken ankle when someone skipped a draw on purpose, then hit a jug awkwardly
>when they swung back into the gently overhanging wall.
>
>The real battle for us is to keep people mindful of the inherent risks
>especially in leading, and to get them to be careful - I think people are
>more relaxed and less on their guard indoors - but gravity works much the
>same way. It feels like a safer environment and there can be more distractions.
> All I can say to people is be careful, take it seriously, and relax when
>you get to the pub.

too true. i was on the helpless end of a very near accident the other day, i was belaying a leader on one of the traversing roof climbs, i saw some girls starting up a top rope route near where the lead rope was leading, and when i realised i told them to "be careful". wasn't sure how else to say it, it wasn't yet a situation of "get the f*** out of the way or you'll DIE". next thing i know the leader has come off and WHOOSH goes right by the girl on the top rope. he fell vertically right over the girl and stopped about with his head level with the back of her knees (?), much further than i thought he would end up. if she was leaning out a bit at the time.. not a pretty picture.

take care kids.

anyclimber

26-Oct-2009
7:20:50 AM

All very interesting stuff.
What get’s me with all this is the level of instructions and supervision in climbing gyms.

Running a climbing gym is pretty much a Risk Management job. Now Risk management is all about
indentifying the risk, controlling them and than monitoring! From what I can see on my regular visit
there is hardly any floor stuff, not much of the monitoring goes on and that’s where the accidents can
be avoided.
On a Sundays at St Peters the place is packed with very novice climbers, kids running around
everywhere, playing on the crash pads below the lead walls etc.. and there is absolutely no staff on
the floor. The staff that is there is very young and unprofessional in my opinion.

I also know that I have used those Auto belays a bit and can’t recall ever been instructed on then use
of them or seeing any instructions. Climbers used to climb to the top up to 3/4m either side and than
jump into them, which surly can’t be the best thing for them.

I do think Climbing gym operators have to sharpen up.


garbie

26-Oct-2009
11:42:46 AM

On 26/10/2009 anyclimber wrote:

>Running a climbing gym is pretty much a Risk Management job. Now Risk
>management is all about
>indentifying the risk, controlling them and than monitoring! From what
>I can see on my regular visit
>there is hardly any floor stuff, not much of the monitoring goes on and
>that’s where the accidents can
>be avoided.

We monitor as best we can, given the large size of the gym, but accidents can't really
be avoided by monitoring - you would need to catch someone doing the wrong thing as
soon as they do it. You would therefore need a staff/climber ratio of one-to-one to have
any chance of stopping a potentially dangerous situation as it happened. We provide a
facility that people can choose to visit if they wish and a safety system for climbing that
people are choosing to use. All we can do is warn people of the dangers, give them
safety instruction, and then its their responsibility for their own safety. Its just like
driving a car - no one is sitting next to you stopping you running off the road. It sounds
harsh but climbing centres or any such facilities would not exist if they were responsible
for everyone's total safety as soon as they entered the door. Neither would a lot of other
organised sports.

>On a Sundays at St Peters the place is packed with very novice climbers,
>kids running around
>everywhere, playing on the crash pads below the lead walls etc.. and there
>is absolutely no staff on
>the floor. The staff that is there is very young and unprofessional in
>my opinion.

Some are young, yes, but does that necessarily make them any worse as staff, or
unprofessional? Please let us know about specific issues and we will "provide
feedback" for our staff, thanks.

(And anyclimber, you didn't need to be anonymous, we wouldn't have banned you!)


nmonteith

26-Oct-2009
11:50:59 AM

I've climbed (outdoors) with quite a few of the staff members at SICG - some of them may be young but
most have good climbing skills. Unlike some gyms in Vic, the staff at SICG actually seem to be
'climbers' as opposed to random uni students needing a weekend job with no understanding of rock
climbing.


evanbb

26-Oct-2009
11:54:42 AM

On 26/10/2009 anyclimber wrote:
>I do think Climbing gym operators have to sharpen up.

I totally disagree with this statement. If someone takes up climbing who is not prepared to take responsibility for their own safety, then they've chosen the wrong sport.

Like OH&S laws, the employer just has to provide a safe environment. If they do the right things, and you ignore them, you are liable. Same should apply in a gym. They certify everyone who is climbing by checking they can belay. If they then do it wrong, it is not the gym's fault. Nor their responsibility to hold everyone's hand 24/7. What next? Gyms liable for outdoor accidents for not teaching people correctly?

There are 71 messages in this topic.