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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 89
Author
Ankles busted in the Bluies

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22/04/2009
5:50:32 PM
On 22/04/2009 gremlin wrote:
>By the time you've both untied, rigged up this 60cm sling and triple checked
>it, i'm already at the next anchor, made myself safe and the second person
>is on their way down...

Next thing you will tell us that bouldererererererer*s avoid this problem all together!






ererererer* = sound same makes after ankle breaks!

wallwombat
22/04/2009
6:08:43 PM
On 22/04/2009 gremlin wrote:

>By the time you've both untied, rigged up this 60cm sling and triple checked
>it, i'm already at the next anchor, made myself safe and the second person
>is on their way down...

it sounds a lot quicker when you describe it that way than....

On 22/04/2009 gremlin wrote:

>i rig the abseil up as you normally would, then make two figure eights
>in the rope and clip these to the anchor with lockers, i rap on one strand
>while the second person belays me on the other. Once down and safe the
>second guy removes the lockers and figure eights leaving a rope threaded
>through the anchor ready for a normal rap. Instead of the second using
>a prussick they get a firemans belay

You both have to untie from the rope, right?

So you are saying you making two figure eights in the rope and clipping both into the anchors with lockers is way, way faster than me wrapping a 60cm sling around a rope a few times, looping one end up through the other and clipping in to it.

Do you think I'm going to knit myself a sling or something?

Then your lucky climbing partner has to undo two lockers, untie two figure eight knots (one that has been weighted), pull one strand of the rope, rethread the rope and drop it again.

Yep, your flying mate!

Better be careful you don't get booked for speeding.

gremlin
22/04/2009
6:30:09 PM
>You both have to untie from the rope, right?

No only the leader, the second is already rigged up to be lowered after climbing up...
The second (as in rap) undoes the figure 8, clips the other strand and jumps off.

wallwombat
22/04/2009
6:41:22 PM
OK, now I get it.

What ever floats your boat, I suppose.

tnd
23/04/2009
9:15:38 AM
What's the f*cking rush anyway? Climbing is about being methodical and deliberate in your actions, not racing to the next belay.

nmonteith
23/04/2009
10:00:30 AM
fast and light - alpine!
rolsen1
23/04/2009
10:24:00 AM
On 22/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the
>device, this catches any error in
>threading the device.

On 21/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>I had a friend who dislodged a large rock while abseiling in a canyon.
>It broke his right collar bone. None of those things you mentioned would
>have helped him. If he hadn't been using a french prussick as a back up,
>I would now have one less friend.

So you dislodge a rock onto your partner's head knocking him/her out (even though they're wearing a helmet).

You manage to get down to them.

You clip yourself directly to their belay loop using a short sling so you can control the descent continuing the rap on their belay device.

But they've use a top pussick and you can't reach it and control the brake rope at the same time. With an auto block you would be able to use this approach to get them down.

Or do you do something else in this situation with a top prussick?
madtaffy1
23/04/2009
10:41:04 AM
A knife always works.

muki
23/04/2009
1:18:24 PM
On 23/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>On 22/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>>As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the
>>device, this catches any error in
>>threading the device.
true
>On 21/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>>I had a friend who dislodged a large rock while abseiling in a canyon.
>>It broke his right collar bone. None of those things you mentioned would
>>have helped him. If he hadn't been using a french prussick as a back
>up,
>>I would now have one less friend.
also true, thankfully
>So you dislodge a rock onto your partner's head knocking him/her out (even
>though they're wearing a helmet).

never happened yet, but possible.

>You manage to get down to them.

Well if I was above dislodging the rock, then there are a few alternatives.
1: rescue haul from above to get him/her to where I am, then descend together.

>You clip yourself directly to their belay loop using a short sling

2: down prussic to him/her and connect with more than one point ! its called redundancy.

>so you can control the descent continuing the rap on their belay device.

3:install extra friction to compensate the extra load on the rappel.

>But they've use a top pussick and you can't reach it and control the brake
>rope at the same time.

4:I have arrived on prussic, therefore I can use these as anchor points to create a haul system to
either unload their device and re-rig my own, or disconnect any gear that hinders my rescue.
I would indeed be running an auto block back up for the rappel using a french prussic above my
device.
I can't understand why you think it would be out of reach, when I would be arriving from above ?

>With an auto block you would be able to use this
>approach to get them down.

an auto block is just any device that locks the load automatically when a load is applied !
Important to note, not all these auto blocks are easily releasable once loaded with two body weights !

>Or do you do something else in this situation with a top prussick?

As I said there are many options and I always look for the safest, most straight forward and fastest
method when involved in a rescue.
rolsen1
23/04/2009
7:59:13 PM
On 23/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>On 23/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>>On 22/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>>>As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the
>>>device, this catches any error in
>>>threading the device.
>true

good to see you agree with yourself there Muki.

snip

>Well if I was above dislodging the rock, then there are a few alternatives.
>1: rescue haul from above to get him/her to where I am, then descend together.
snip
>2: down prussic to him/her and connect with more than one point ! its
>called redundancy.
snip
>3:install extra friction to compensate the extra load on the rappel.
snip
>4:I have arrived on prussic, therefore I can use these as anchor points
snip
>I can't understand why you think it would be out of reach, when I would
snip
>Important to note, not all these auto blocks are easily releasable once
snip
>As I said there are many options and I always look for the safest, most
>straight forward and fastest

Hey I still agree with myself as well!

On 21/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>Obviously, the rock fall case is different but is that why people are
>using them and how many people climb with partners who will be able to
>rescue them when they are dangling unconscious from a rope half way up
>a steep face? And what precautions are we taking from rock fall from a
>leader hitting a belayer?

great point and I think Muki just proved it

>That's why these sort of threads annoy me so much, people make blanket
>statements about safety practices which are only playing around the edges

Yes, another great point Richard

muki
23/04/2009
8:20:55 PM
On 23/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>That's why these sort of threads annoy me so much

If that's the case then why bother replying, I think if anybody can learn something for free, ie not by
hurting themselves to enable the lesson..... then that's a good thing, by bagging the discussion and not
adding anything of value for others, you are missing the point of the forums purpose.
discussion does not necessarily have to involve dissension, just for the sake of an argument.
rolsen1
23/04/2009
8:41:48 PM
On 23/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>If that's the case then why bother replying, I think if anybody can learn
>something for free, ie not by
>hurting themselves to enable the lesson..... then that's a good thing,

I bother replying because safety is important, because I have low tolerance to bullsh1t and because there is nothing good on tv.

I'm posting to point out the counter-productive safety advice that is sometimes dished out on this site, unfortunately usually by the same people. There still hasn't been a good reason for a backup on a rap in fact as kieran pointed out people have died using them, yes I know he suggested below the belay device

but let's encourage others to do certain things because they're beginners

or because they make us "feel safe"

Muki, why are you posting?
richardo
23/04/2009
9:49:32 PM
On 23/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:

>Muki, why are you posting?

He's being ironic.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
24/04/2009
11:05:46 AM
rolsen1 wrote
>I'm posting to point out the counter-productive safety advice that is sometimes dished out on this site (snip) There still hasn't been a good reason for a backup on a rap

?
I thought several good reasons had been presented.
Whether the reader/s (experienced or otherwise), choose to do so is another matter entirely.
rod
24/04/2009
3:55:26 PM
On 24/04/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>?
>I thought several good reasons had been presented.
>Whether the reader/s (experienced or otherwise), choose to do so is another
>matter entirely.

Exactly and plenty provoked a rethink on my part.

evanbb
24/04/2009
5:24:19 PM
On 24/04/2009 rod wrote:
>Exactly and plenty provoked a rethink on my part.

Ditto. I've been thinking long and hard about this. The thing that needs to be remembered is that it won't be 100% effective, so it's a balance of risk mitigation; ie which method is going to eliminate the risk best in the given situation. I can definitely see times when an autoblock could be a drama; I never use one rapping into water. Also, the prussick above the belay device makes some sense too. Horses for courses. To carte blanch declare that X is deadly or Y should always be used simplifies the matter a little too much.
rolsen1
24/04/2009
6:28:30 PM
On 24/04/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
snip
>I thought several good reasons had been presented.
>Whether the reader/s (experienced or otherwise), choose to do so is another
>matter entirely.

On 24/04/2009 evanbb wrote:
>On 24/04/2009 rod wrote:
>>Exactly and plenty provoked a rethink on my part.
>
>Ditto. I've been thinking long and hard about this. The thing that needs
>to be remembered is that it won't be 100% effective, so it's a balance


Hey, I'm happy to be proved wrong about this. Obviously I'm so much more competent than all of you. Out of hundreds, thousands of raps I've never come close to letting go of the rope and plummeting to the ground! Sure my hand has got hot a few times but I know how to thread a belay device properly and I've threaded it correctly every time, I know how to control my own descent.

How many times have you guys dropped yourself, to have your backup save you?

Again, I wouldn't want anyone belaying me that thinks they might drop themselves while they are rapping. If they haven't got confidence in themselves to complete an easier task that seems reasonable to me.

We live in a cause and effect world, I don't believe in ghosts ( I gladly walk around the house with the lights off in the middle of the night ) and I'll rap without a backup every time.

Sure use a backup if your prone to seizures.

My points are:

1. If you thread (the appropriate gear) right and are competent then you don't need a backup.

2. The backup can get you in trouble if it locks and you can't undo it

3. Any reason for using the backup has a solution without it eg. wrapping the rope around your leg to remove gear or untangle a rope

4. If a falling rock, in that rare circumstance, knocks you out and your backup saves you then unfortunately your partner probably won't know how to save you anyway.

Sure do your superstitious activities, use a prussick backup and read your horoscope before you set off but don't try to tell me (and the novices on this site) that it constitutes safe practices.

Of course, maybe I'm just the world's best abseiler and totally wrong on this!

wallwombat
24/04/2009
7:27:08 PM
On 24/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>4. If a falling rock, in that rare circumstance, knocks you out and your
>backup saves you then unfortunately your partner probably won't know how
>to save you anyway.

Call me old fashioned but I'd rather be knocked out than dead.


rolsen1
24/04/2009
7:59:36 PM
On 24/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>On 24/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>>4. If a falling rock, in that rare circumstance, knocks you out and your
>>backup saves you then unfortunately your partner probably won't know
>how
>>to save you anyway.
>
>Call me old fashioned but I'd rather be knocked out than dead.
>
>
>

harness hang syndrome kills you in ten to thirty minutes - not enough time to be old fashioned

evanbb
24/04/2009
8:46:50 PM
On 24/04/2009 rolsen1 wrote:
>Hey, I'm happy to be proved wrong about this. Obviously I'm so much more
>competent than all of you.

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but you're shamelessly trolling and intentionally missing the point. It seems to me that your point is "I do everything perfect, every time I do it, so there is no point taking any steps to cover the slim possibility of making a mistake." I hope you don't wear a seatbelt, a helmet or condom in that case or you're an awful hypocrit.

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There are 89 messages in this topic.

 

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