Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

Author

Ankles busted in the Bluies


nmonteith

22-Apr-2009
9:36:27 AM

Am i the only one who raps using a gri-gri (or in my case an Eddy)? On a short 'sport rap' like the one on flake crack I would certainly just fix one side of the rope, rap down and pull the other side. On multipitch routes i usually fix the rope, rap down the single strand on the gri-gri, then the second unfixes it and raps using a conventional ATC with me on the end doing a firemans brake. Or if i really want speed we simul-rap both using gri-gri's.

In the past i've used a Petzel Shunt to protect double rope raps. It's a but clunky to drag around and these days i just use my Eddy instead as it's one device which does everything (ie rap, ascend, belay - all hands free if required)


wallwombat

22-Apr-2009
10:12:27 AM

On 22/04/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Am i the only one who raps using a gri-gri (or in my case an Eddy)?

It looks like you are, Neil.

weirdo


BigMike

22-Apr-2009
11:20:26 AM

On 21/04/2009 ambyeok wrote:
>On 21/04/2009 BigMike wrote:
>>If he fell 15 metres the rope would have had to be less than 30 metres
>>long for that to
>>happen, surely?
>
>Lets check my understanding. If one end of the rope is secure in the belay
>device then we have 30m out on the other side. This means a max fall of
>15m before the loose end reaches the height of the autoblock. On a 20m
>rap that would have caught it, right?

Yeah that sounds right. For some reason I was visualising him tying together two ropes.
If he fell 15m, he might have stayed off the ground with a knot in the end, especially if he
had a 50m rope.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

22-Apr-2009
2:30:12 PM

PB wrote
>Well the results are in and it seems that an autoblock will not work if only one strand is clipped through the abseil device biner. It will work somewhat if four wraps are wrapped around the ropes though, three wraps will put you on the floor every time.

ww wrote
> If he hadn't been using a french prussick as a back up, I would now have one less friend.

>Using an autoblock does not slow you down.

Hmm.
In my experience an autoblock works, and can actually work ‘too well’*. I use four to five (sometimes more* ~> see earlier comment!), wraps though, ... depending on the climbing rope diameter.

The diameter of the autoblock/french prusik/whatever! cord is also critical. Generally thinner is better relative to the climbing rope. I find 5mm ideal (6mm max). I use this on doubled 9 mm lead ropes, or single 10.5 mm lead rope and note it works even better on old 11 mm rope!

Certainly 7mm slips, particularly with only three wraps.

rolsen1 wrote;
>people make blanket statements about safety practices which are only playing around the edges of safety. I'm sure there are alot of novices who read these forums. To those, I say rather than take the time to set up an autoblock, take the time to say to yourself, "if I stuff this up I'm dead" Being safe is continually making good decisions the whole time we're out.

I agree that knowing the trade is essential to safety, but would add that having a bag of safety tricks in your technique arsenal is also helpful.
Using a backup is a good trick to employ on many occasions.
Just test the system at ground level prior to having to rely on a technique in earnest, so that you know it will work when needed.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

22-Apr-2009
2:38:06 PM

>On 21/04/2009 kieranl wrote:
>
>>I believe that if the prussick is above the abseil device then it can
>>lock out of reach and that people have died because they couldn't extricate
>>themselves from this position.

On 21/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>It's six of one and half a dozen of another.
>
>I think the key, if having the autoblock above the abseil device, is to
>make sure the sling is of a length that wont let the knot get out of reach.
>That's not that hard to do.
>
>Once the prussick or autoblock is weighted, you wrap the rope a few times
>around a foot, stand up and unweight the prussick.

The reality is slightly harder than suggested here.
One can find the abseil device is still slightly 'loaded' (by rope weight remaining below), and inching it upwards to put weight back onto it once autoblock is released with slack taken out of system can involve a bit of jiggery pokery as well as strength and balance if the sling lengths are awkward!
... but yeah, I know what you mean.
I used to do it that way and now use it below the abseil device instead, as I find it easier to rectify once 'deployed'.


gremlin

22-Apr-2009
3:47:19 PM

I only use a prussick/autoblock in rare circumstances. But they're good to have in the toolbox of tricks...

If there are no sharp edges i usually just get lowered, alternatively i rig the abseil up as you normally would, then make two figure eights in the rope and clip these to the anchor with lockers, i rap on one strand while the second person belays me on the other. Once down and safe the second guy removes the lockers and figure eights leaving a rope threaded through the anchor ready for a normal rap. Instead of the second using a prussick they get a firemans belay.

The rope is always tied to someone, less chance of it being dropped.
There's no tinkering around rigging up prussicks/autoblocks.
The first person down can make sure the rope dosn't gets snagged or tangled.
Theres the option of going hands free to deal with clusterf---s and other problems.
If the rap ends up in no mans land the first person can sink in a few bolts/pitons, climb, batman, be hauled or prussick back up.

It can't be done in all situations, but when it has, it's saved a lot of time...

... none of this would have helped Jeremy as his circumstances were completely different.


wallwombat

22-Apr-2009
4:01:19 PM

How hard is it to get a 60cm sling, wrap it around the rope a few times and loop one end up through the other and clip into the friggen end.

The way people are going on, you'd think they were rebuilding a f#cking formula one engine.

It takes less than five seconds.

I'll admit I don't always use one but I know how to use one and if the abseil is long or scary or dodgy, I generally always will.

And only the first person really needs to bother as the others can be bottom belayed.

Rapping on one strand......being belayed on the other.....F#ck!

It would be quicker to take the lift.

Winston Smith

22-Apr-2009
4:16:33 PM

On 22/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>How hard is it to get a 60cm sling, wrap it around the rope a few times
>and loop one end up through the other and clip into the friggen end.
>
>The way people are going on, you'd think they were rebuilding a f#cking
>formula one engine.
>
>It takes less than five seconds.
>
>I'll admit I don't always use one but I know how to use one and if the
>abseil is long or scary or dodgy, I generally always will.
>
>And only the first person really needs to bother as the others can be
>bottom belayed.
>
>Rapping on one strand......being belayed on the other.....F#ck!
>
>It would be quicker to take the lift.

Here here wallwombat.

Why not just use a fricken autoblock/prussic(k)/shunt above or below the primary device?

If you can build some redundancy into the system why not take the extra few seconds?

Put it his way: you’re probably gonna be glad you took the time to back up your abseil the day that rock/number 5 Friend/quickdraw/piece of Skylab falls from the sky and hits you in the head.

Of course if you ain’t wearing a helmet at the time maybe the lack of an abseil backup is the department of natural selection’s way of effecting a product recall.


muki

22-Apr-2009
4:30:52 PM

On 22/04/2009 orwell wrote:
>Why not just use a fricken autoblock/prussic(k)/shunt above or below the primary device?

A prussic fitted above will hold a mis-threaded belay device failure.

PB wrote
>Well the results are in and it seems that an autoblock will not work if only one strand is clipped
>through the abseil device biner.

this failure was when the prussic was fitted below the device, as one strand runs up and the other
down, disrupting the grab function of the prussic.
As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the device, this catches any error in
threading the device.
As pointed out by a very astute climber earlier.....

>How hard is it to get a 60cm sling, wrap it around the rope a few times
>and loop one end up through the other and clip into the friggen end.

Well said WW, my sentiments exactly !

rod

22-Apr-2009
4:35:51 PM

On 22/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Rapping on one strand......being belayed on the other.....F#ck!

I share your disbelief, seems like a real timewaster.

@ Neil. Depends on what I've got with me but I rap with the gri when lead rope soloing to clean gear and during simul-raps if I have it with me on multi's.

Winston Smith

22-Apr-2009
4:46:44 PM

On 22/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>On 22/04/2009 orwell wrote:
>>Why not just use a fricken autoblock/prussic(k)/shunt above or below
>the primary device?
>
>A prussic fitted above will hold a mis-threaded belay device failure.
>
>PB wrote
>>Well the results are in and it seems that an autoblock will not work
>if only one strand is clipped
>>through the abseil device biner.
>
>this failure was when the prussic was fitted below the device, as one
>strand runs up and the other
>down, disrupting the grab function of the prussic.
>As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the
>device, this catches any error in
>threading the device.
>As pointed out by a very astute climber earlier.....
>
>>How hard is it to get a 60cm sling, wrap it around the rope a few times
>>and loop one end up through the other and clip into the friggen end.
>
>Well said WW, my sentiments exactly !

It was a general comment pointing out that whatever your favoured option it's preferable to no backup.

I'll continue to use an autoblock below the device AND check that the primary device is loaded properly.


ajfclark

22-Apr-2009
4:57:14 PM

On 22/04/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>this failure was when the prussic was fitted below the device, as one strand runs up and the other down, disrupting the grab function of the prussic.
>As i stated before, the safest option is to fit the prussic above the device, this catches any error in threading the device.

This doesn't make sense to me. Surely whether the prussick is above or below the belay device if only one strand is clipped one strand will run up and the other will run down (or try to at least).


IdratherbeclimbingM9

22-Apr-2009
4:59:57 PM

On 22/04/2009 orwell wrote:
>I'll continue to use an autoblock below the device AND check that the
>primary device is loaded properly.

So will I. It takes less than five seconds.
I prefer to spend my engineering time on the placements!

Also agree with ajf above post, and consider having an effective prussik to be the more important issue, ... no matter it's location, if one intends to use one at all.


nmonteith

22-Apr-2009
5:03:50 PM

I can't believe all you time wasters use belay devices! I just hand over hand down the rope.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

22-Apr-2009
5:05:25 PM

Yeah, but probably anchored off two bolts!


wallwombat

22-Apr-2009
5:06:27 PM

On 22/04/2009 ajfclark wrote:

>This doesn't make sense to me. Surely whether the prussick is above or
>below the belay device if only one strand is clipped one strand will run
>up and the other will run down (or try to at least).

The prussick is around both strands of rope. If only one strand of rope is threaded through the abseil device, one strand will try to run up and one will try to run down but the "weighted" prussick will prevent this and you will end up hanging from a prussick.


wallwombat

22-Apr-2009
5:08:06 PM

On 22/04/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>I can't believe all you time wasters use belay devices! I just hand over
>hand down the rope.

weirdo

Winston Smith

22-Apr-2009
5:14:20 PM

When I'm tradding down a cliff in my hobnailed boots I often marvel at the friction properties of bare flesh as i use the classic body wrap abseil method on my hawser-laid rope.

When I'm sport climbing in my mankini there is even more flesh to use as a brake allthough the 0.6mm ultralight sport rope does tend to produce an effect like a piece of wire through cheese.

Thankfully skin grows... eventually.


ajfclark

22-Apr-2009
5:23:03 PM

On 22/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>The prussick is around both strands of rope. If only one strand of rope is threaded through the abseil device, one strand will try to run up and one will try to run down but the "weighted" prussick will prevent this and you will end up hanging from a prussick.

Still not getting the difference. As far as I can see, in both the above and below situations the prussick will be static relative to the threaded strand...

Ok, pulled out some gear and had a bit of a play.

When the prussick is below and one strand is through the belay device, both strands move up through the prussick but they pull 180 degrees from each other at the top, preventing the prussick from locking. Right?


gremlin

22-Apr-2009
5:47:23 PM

On 22/04/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>How hard is it to get a 60cm sling, wrap it around the rope a few times
>and loop one end up through the other and clip into the friggen end.

By the time you've both untied, rigged up this 60cm sling and triple checked it, i'm already at the next anchor, made myself safe and the second person is on their way down...

There are 89 messages in this topic.