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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 33
Author
Open slings and rubber rings
rightarmbad
18/06/2010
1:54:38 PM
And rated gear loops because there have been people that have belayed of them by accident apparently....
WM
18/06/2010
2:28:56 PM
On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>And rated gear loops because there have been people that have belayed of
>them by accident apparently....

last year a guy in a Melbourne gym tied in & clipped in to a gear loop by mistake, and then decked when he went to sit on the rope and the loop gave. Needed ambos etc.
patto
18/06/2010
2:30:22 PM
Wow. Each to their own. Everybody can make their own decisions but seriously some logic here confuses me.

On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>I use, and will continue to use the rubber O rings.
>It is no more of a problem than back clipping, forgetting to lock screw
>gates and other silly stuff.
Neither of these two things renders the device useless. Double clip the sling and you have a 50% chance that the sling will seem alright but break at >10kg.

>as well as making lengthening a tripled long sling always
>the correct way without either losing the sling out of the biner or ending
>up with a girth hitched runner.
Um. No they don't. For starters if your unclipping technique is right then there your sling will always come out the correct way. In the case of bad technique instead of the biner coming unclipped from the sling you end up with the danger that has been presented!!!!!!

>I believe that the improvement in fumble free clipping and the reduction
>of rope induced movement of a piece far outweighs the small risk of this
>rare type of failure.
I don't unstand how these help fumble free clipping on long slings. Furthermore how does it reduce 'rope induced movement'? Surely a stiffer connection if anything would increase it!

>Paranoid types can do as they please, but to me it is a tiny risk that
>is easily mitigated, and offers real improvement in everyday situations.
>
>Should we swap out all of our non locking biners for locking ones?
>Similar sort of crap argument.
Crap argument? Somebody died here dude. This is hardly similar to the almost negligible probability of non lockers unclipping.

Anything that can create an appearance of security yet is in fact 100% insecure is dangerous. Rubber bands/Strings etc can lead to this scenario.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/06/2010
2:37:26 PM
On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>I use, and will continue to use the rubber O rings.
>It is no more of a problem than back clipping, forgetting to lock screw
>gates and other silly stuff.
>They offer an advantage in everyday climbing of the biner always being
>located correctly, as well as making lengthening a tripled long sling always
>the correct way without either losing the sling out of the biner or ending
>up with a girth hitched runner.
>
>On long slings I'm even considering an O ring at both ends.
>All of my trad draws are sewn loops for maximum floppiness, an O ring
>to make one end captive is an elegant solution.
>I believe that the improvement in fumble free clipping and the reduction
>of rope induced movement of a piece far outweighs the small risk of this
>rare type of failure.
>
>Paranoid types can do as they please, but to me it is a tiny risk that
>is easily mitigated, and offers real improvement in everyday situations.
>
>Should we swap out all of our non locking biners for locking ones?
>Similar sort of crap argument.

A reasonable post, that I tend to agree with.

Recently I used revolver krabs on long dyneema slings on a couple of multipitch climbs. My second informed me that they had rotated after I had moved on, such that the revolver end was at the sling end rather than the rope end as intended. I have since put them on nylon slings and 'captured' them in place with rubber 'O' rings. If they manage to rotate again, I shall be clove hitching them*!!
(*Yes I know this reduces sling strength by as much as 50%...)

Knowing your gear, its limitations, checking it prior to use, and correctly using it (or knowing the additional risk if using it 'incorrectly'), are all part of the complete set of skills needed by climbers, ... and even then there is no guarantee of complete safety.

I read the complete thread link to Rockclimbing.com earlier posted, and am still amazed by how easily some folk are spooked.
It is contagious ;-)
~> I have since rechecked my 'sport' quickdraws (all of which have rubber 'O' rings), and decided that their length is such that the possibility of back-clipping a single strand is remote, and easily checked visually before racking them on the harness.
I don't use the 'O' rings on my longer trad slings generally, as I have not found this necessary for the most part, ... with the exception of the revolvers.
another dave
18/06/2010
6:10:53 PM
>Recently I used revolver krabs on long dyneema slings on a couple of multipitch
>climbs. My second informed me that they had rotated after I had moved on,
>such that the revolver end was at the sling end rather than the rope end
>as intended. I have since put them on nylon slings and 'captured' them
>in place with rubber 'O' rings. If they manage to rotate again, I shall
>be clove hitching them*!!
I did the same thing it solved the problem.

By the way guys it is also possible to unclip a biner from a sling that is not held in place by a rubber band. Though the risk is probably smaller it is still there.
Fact is clipping is more convenient with the rubber band.
Also it is not all together unheard of for straight gates to unclip due to weird directional forces of the rope. There was a post here not that long ago where a bolt below the one that held unclipped in a fall.

So the best solution is to have a second piece of gear between you and the ground.

As a possible solution to the sling problem - picture this. Lay your sling on the ground a biner at each end pull them tight so both strands are touching. Then sticky tape both of those strands together so the only loops in the sling are where the biners are. Then if one biner flips and goes to clip another strand it would clip both.
This should allow the climber to do the standard three to one shortening trick for easier racking.
Obviously sticky tape is not the ideal stuff to use its just all I could think of. Perhaps sewing thread.
Another issue is that it is no longer a handy dandy 60cm sling for slinging stuff.
another dave
18/06/2010
6:17:12 PM
Sorry just watched the video in which the biner flipping happens in the pack.

My last post is in reference to it happening when the rope is flicking around behind you on a climb or during a fall.
rightarmbad
18/06/2010
7:12:05 PM
On 18/06/2010 patto wrote:
>Wow. Each to their own. Everybody can make their own decisions but seriously
>some logic here confuses me.
>
>On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>>I use, and will continue to use the rubber O rings.
>>It is no more of a problem than back clipping, forgetting to lock screw
>>gates and other silly stuff.
>Neither of these two things renders the device useless. Double clip the
>sling and you have a 50% chance that the sling will seem alright but break
>at >10kg.
>
>>as well as making lengthening a tripled long sling always
>>the correct way without either losing the sling out of the biner or ending
>>up with a girth hitched runner.
>Um. No they don't. For starters if your unclipping technique is right
>then there your sling will always come out the correct way. In the case
>of bad technique instead of the biner coming unclipped from the sling you
>end up with the danger that has been presented!!!!!!
>
>>I believe that the improvement in fumble free clipping and the reduction
>>of rope induced movement of a piece far outweighs the small risk of this
>>rare type of failure.
>I don't unstand how these help fumble free clipping on long slings. Furthermore
>how does it reduce 'rope induced movement'? Surely a stiffer connection
>if anything would increase it!
>
>>Paranoid types can do as they please, but to me it is a tiny risk that
>>is easily mitigated, and offers real improvement in everyday situations.
>>
>>Should we swap out all of our non locking biners for locking ones?
>>Similar sort of crap argument.
>Crap argument? Somebody died here dude. This is hardly similar to the
>almost negligible probability of non lockers unclipping.
>
>Anything that can create an appearance of security yet is in fact 100%
>insecure is dangerous. Rubber bands/Strings etc can lead to this scenario.


I don't know anyone that extends slings perfectly every time, with bands it's easy.
It also stops the biner flopping around into an unclippable orientation, a potentially dangerous action if sketching out.

My 'trad draws' are all open slings for floppiness, having o-rings makes them much better to use whist maintaining their floppiness to prevent tugging on gear.

Somebody died not because of their slings, but because they lacked the mindset to predict/spot/mitigate a very small potential problem.

If non lockers have such a tiny probability of unclipping, why do you bother with them?

I have a sport draw set up with a locker, usually for my first clip or anywhere I think that there is a chance that there may be a problem with unclipping or the gate being opened by the rock.

I also pretty much always use a locker when clipping in to an anchor.
I am very wary when I don't.

A sling with a rubber band that has been flipped into this dangerous state is blatantly obvious, to have missed it twice shows that there was no mentality of checking her gear in place in her mind.
This is the tragedy, a simple mistake that was failed to be picked up because of a casual attitude to safety.
lacto
18/06/2010
7:30:52 PM
Hell Elastorator rings are designed to "humanely " remove tails and testes on animals so maybe appropriate that they could damage a climber in their "new" use. revenge of the animals.?????
patto
18/06/2010
11:22:00 PM
On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>I don't know anyone that extends slings perfectly every time,
Thats odd. I certainly do. If you tripple them properly and unclip properly they'll work every time.

On 18/06/2010 rightarmbad wrote:
>A sling with a rubber band that has been flipped into this dangerous state
>is blatantly obvious, to have missed it twice shows that there was no mentality
>of checking her gear in place in her mind.
>This is the tragedy, a simple mistake that was failed to be picked up
>because of a casual attitude to safety.
Casual attitude? Or simple unaware of a problem. Most people when they see a sling with a carabiner affixed to an end they assume that it is bomber. Yes if the climber had been more attentive then this may not have occurred. However knowing creating a system which could easily confuse and cause death doesn't seem the best idea.

Anyway, stay safe. :-)
One Day Hero
19/06/2010
4:43:04 PM
On 18/06/2010 patto wrote:
>Thats odd. I certainly do. If you tripple them properly and unclip properly
>they'll work every time.

Yeah, I've never seen the point in rubberbanding extendy slings......makes it more clustery in my experience.
>
>Casual attitude? Or simple unaware of a problem. Most people when they
>see a sling with a carabiner affixed to an end they assume that it is bomber.
> Yes if the climber had been more attentive then this may not have occurred.
> However knowing creating a system which could easily confuse and cause
>death doesn't seem the best idea.


I think the f---ups in that accident were, in order of seriousness

#1, going off belay and untying from the rope completely to rethread (why do people do this?)

#2, not weighting the slings until after the backup was removed (that seppo doush on the linked thread is pretty funny, defending his approach in the face of overwhelming logic)

#3, unlucky sling wierdness (I would hope that I'd notice it, but there's much bigger things my eyes have missed)..........anyway, if #1 and #2 were followed, #3 would have resulted in a little fall and a fright. Maximising redundancy is a good way to stay alive.
One Day Hero
19/06/2010
4:53:49 PM
On 18/06/2010 patto wrote:
>Crap argument? Somebody died here dude. This is hardly similar to the
>almost negligible probability of non lockers unclipping.
>
>Anything that can create an appearance of security yet is in fact 100%
>insecure is dangerous.

Stoned people on belay?

I actually don't agree that the chance of biners unclipping is negligable. In fact, I think a biner unclipping is more worrysome than the rubber ring drama. A nice sharp tug on your sling after clipping will tell you whether there's a problem or not. Once you clip a draw, the first you'll know about its potential to unclip is when it fails to arrest your fall.

As with all things climbing, the best insurance in either case is redundancy

patto
19/06/2010
5:46:21 PM
On 19/06/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
>I think the f---ups in that accident were, in order of seriousness.....
I agree. :-)

The number of accidents that occur because people don't peform a simple test amazes me. I don't understand people who manage to thread their gri-gri backwards and the not notice! One simple tug!

On 19/06/2010 One Day Hero wrote:
> I actually don't agree that the chance of biners unclipping is negligable.
>In fact, I think a biner unclipping is more worrysome than the rubber ring
>drama.
Negligable might have been too strong of a word. But still is a risk that anecdotally is less likely to occur than trad gear failure. For situations where there is only 1 piece between you and the ground then throwing a locker on the sling is an option that I have take before.

Besides I think the point is being missed here. The concern about this is less about the errant single piece in a line of many pieces. The concern is when this could be used in a situation where a single failure could lead to disaster. Even if you are aware, your seconds or other using your rack may not be.

>A nice sharp tug on your sling after clipping will tell you whether
>there's a problem or not.
Petzl Strings need alot more than a sharp tug to be obvious there is a problem.

>As with all things climbing, the best insurance in either case is redundancy
Redundancy doesn't work when errors are systemic. This was tragically shown in the recent accident. The climber had TWO slings as safety girth hitched to herself. (I wouldn't be surprised if the doubleclip mistake occured before even getting to the anchor as a way of getting rid of the slack sling, I often do this as a lazy second when cleaning gear. There is a 50% chance it will result in an unattached sling.)


ajfclark originally posted this just to make people aware. Take it as public safety announcement. Nobody is making anybody change the way they climb, but dismissing this as a non issue is equally foolish. Somebody died here. :-(
One DAy Hero
20/06/2010
1:44:33 PM
On 19/06/2010 patto wrote:
>Redundancy doesn't work when errors are systemic. This was tragically
>shown in the recent accident. The climber had TWO slings as safety girth
>hitched to herself. (I wouldn't be surprised if the doubleclip mistake
>occured before even getting to the anchor as a way of getting rid of the
>slack sling, I often do this as a lazy second when cleaning gear. There
>is a 50% chance it will result in an unattached sling.)
>
Yeah, fair point. If I actually climbed with two slings in my harness, and had clipped them to a belay, I'd assume I was safe too.

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 33
There are 33 messages in this topic.

 

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