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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 109
Author
Lead fall Hard Rock CBD

OzA
23/07/2008
1:52:53 PM
On 23/07/2008 hangdog wrote:
>>
>This comment appears to indicate where the problem may lie. Its not my
>fault its the gyms.Why don't you just belay correctly.

So from this statement you assume that the person giving you advise knows what they are doing. So if climbing in a gym a staff member tells you to cut the rope would you? Assuming that they have a duty of care and have your safety in mind.

There should be an expectation that the people working there are correctly trained and qualified. If this were not the case you would have situations where safety is compromised. Imaging going for a driving lesson where the instructor didn't know how to drive.

I think that both parties are responsible for each others safety. If there is an issue then the staff need to know, if they have an issue then they should tell you. Safety works both ways. It is also important for the Climber and Belayer to talk about what they want before they climb.

manacubus
23/07/2008
2:12:48 PM
On 22/07/2008 gfdonc wrote:
>Basically whenever I am climbing (indoor or outdoor) I anchor myself or
>my belayer to the deck. Most of the people I climb with also have this
>preference.

I can't remember the last time I saw a tethered belayer belaying a lead climber (when on safe stable ground). This practice is antiquated and falling out of favour with the continued rise of sport climbing and the requirement that the belayer provide dynamic catches. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't fall very often!

>Unfortunately (1) HardRock don't cater very well for people using floor
>anchors, and (2) they don't allow people to use floor anchors when
>doing their lead certification.

I've very glad this is the case. It allows the belayer to provide dynamism and better prepares them for the real world.

(I don't want to hijack the thread or face off against gfdonc, I'm just providing a differing opinion)

evanbb
23/07/2008
2:24:54 PM
On 23/07/2008 manacubus wrote:

>>Unfortunately (1) HardRock don't cater very well for people using floor
>>anchors, and (2) they don't allow people to use floor anchors
>when
>>doing their lead certification.

But, with a heavy leader (me) and a light belayer (Bec) you can easily end up with more accidents like the one at the beginning of this thread. I've injured a couple of belayers while falling; and one that was anchored would have been MUCH worse without it. He was bleeding a lot.
widewetandslippery
23/07/2008
2:25:17 PM
I agree with manacubus re anchoring the belayer to the ground. As an addition to his points is if something is falling at you you cannot get out of the way. Whether it be the dodgey block your leaders arse is pulling off or the leaders arse. In this instance I imagine that whether or not the belayer was tied in it sounds like they were up for the facial mudpack. Bit of clipping slack and a 3rd bolt at a gym brings it alll close to the ground.

Edit, tied down or not.

Rich
23/07/2008
2:35:19 PM
I think both evan and manacubus are right.. most of the time you don't want to be tethered to enable dynamic belays, reduce the possibilityof sprained ankles and the like. However when there is a major weight discrepancy, the leader would have a higher chance of decking when up to the second bolt say and would have larger falls with the belayer being lifted and potentially slamming into the wall.

kezza
23/07/2008
2:49:15 PM
I tend to tie to a ground anchor if I'm lead belaying indoors on certain walls. not tied so i have zero room to move, but enough to prevent me getting sucked up to the first draw, gives the leader a dynamic belay and saves me face planting into the wall... win win.

It would be interesting to know why "experienced" belayers can't see the advantages of the Simple 5 step belay method?? And when nobody gains from cutting corners it's puzzling!

ajfclark
Online Now
23/07/2008
2:56:48 PM
On 23/07/2008 kezza wrote:
>It would be interesting to know why "experienced" belayers can't see the advantages of the Simple 5 step belay method?? And when nobody gains from cutting corners it's puzzling!

I'm confused as to how the 5 step belay came into this discussion. OzA talks about getting told off for not having both hands on the brake side of the rope while feeding slack to his leader and then hangdog starts talking about 5 step belays. As I was only ever taught to use the 5 step for taking in slack, not paying it out, I can't see a connection between what OzA said and hangdog's response.

Is there some way to feed slack with the 5 step belay?

deadbudgy
23/07/2008
2:59:02 PM
On 23/07/2008 kezza wrote:
>I tend to tie to a ground anchor if I'm lead belaying indoors on certain
>walls. not tied so i have zero room to move, but enough to prevent me getting
>sucked up to the first draw, gives the leader a dynamic belay and saves
>me face planting into the wall... win win.
>
This is my favoured method aswell. It allows for some dynamism in the system and prevents the belayer from running into the first piece of pro in the event of a large fall. This is common practice among people I climb with.

OzA
23/07/2008
3:03:29 PM
On 23/07/2008 evanbb wrote:
>But, with a heavy leader (me) and a light belayer (Bec) you can easily
>end up with more accidents like the one at the beginning of this thread.
>I've injured a couple of belayers while falling; and one that was anchored
>would have been MUCH worse without it. He was bleeding a lot.

I have a belayer that is half my weight, she has taken falls without any problems. When she was training she was using a PAS and as she became more confident and her technique improved an anchor was no longer required.

On 23/07/2008 kezza wrote:
>I tend to tie to a ground anchor if I'm lead belaying indoors on certain
>walls. not tied so i have zero room to move, but enough to prevent me getting
>sucked up to the first draw, gives the leader a dynamic belay and saves
>me face planting into the wall... win win.

You should be in a catching position when your lead is going to the first clip, how do you do that when tied down to the ground and away from the wall so you don't face plant? Your shoulder against the wall when your leader is going for the first few clips. If your doing this you can't face plant as you are already against the wall.

evanbb
23/07/2008
3:47:41 PM
On 23/07/2008 kezza wrote:
>I tend to tie to a ground anchor if I'm lead belaying indoors on certain
>walls. not tied so i have zero room to move, but enough to prevent me getting
>sucked up to the first draw, gives the leader a dynamic belay and saves
>me face planting into the wall... win win.

That's essentially what I was getting at, and take the time to make sure you're out of the fall zone too, for rocks and humans. This is mostly on under-vertical trad, we never do steep sporty stuff.

Sabu
23/07/2008
5:05:36 PM
On 22/07/2008 gfdonc wrote:
>Basically whenever I am climbing (indoor or outdoor) I anchor myself or
>my belayer to the deck. Most of the people I climb with also have this
>preference.
>Unfortunately (1) HardRock don't cater very well for people using floor
>anchors, and (2) they don't allow people to use floor anchors when
>doing their lead certification.

Having belayed some very heavy climbers (me being very light) i would say that i'd rather not be attached to anything for the same reasons others have stated. I'd much rather be able to move around, and catch a fall without being strung in an awkward position between the anchor and the 1st clip.
Of course its another story for outdoors....

On 23/07/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Step 1 Say to the leader, "Gorn! Get up there; ya fat hairy slapper"
>
>Step 2 Feed out several metres of slack
>
>Step 3 Start arranging the packs etc into a nice comfy seat
>
>Step 4 Put your walkman/radio/iPod on
>
>Step 5 Vague out whilst looking at the view
GOLD!

kezza
23/07/2008
5:13:49 PM
I don't understand what you are asking OzA?
Yes I spot my belayer before he first clip I have enough slack to do so, as the anchors that I tie to are only a metre or 2 from the base of the wall... No I don't belay with my shoulder to the wall, that to me seems uncomfortable..

I get pulled into the wall when anchored, yes, but my feet hit the wall, not my face and I can only get pulled up as far as my anchor allows, obviously. The only way I could face plant would be if you get sucked all the way up to the first clip, This is what my anchor is preventing.. During the first few clips, indoors and outdoors, I am (as should everyone) extremely cautious of how much slack is out to prevent a ground fall and the position of myself to a) prevent being fallen on or hit with gear on their harnes, and b) to prevent gear stripping.... but thats another kettle of fish.

I'm baffled by your question OzA, could you rephrase it if the above hasn't hit the spot.. I tried my best

I'm not suggesting this should be the rule... not at alll. This is just what I prefer in certain situations... You aren't TOLD to tie down, it's about using common sense and judging the situation yourself.. IF you prefer not to be anchored, then don't...
gfdonc
23/07/2008
6:25:12 PM
Each to his own, but my point was that the gym discourages or (in one case) doesn't allow me to belay using my preferred method.

And I don't like doing one thing in the gym and another outdoors, it messes with my sense of keeping it simple and consistent.

We all tie down on multi-pitch climbs though, don't we???

I would opt not to tie down sometimes, if rockfall was likely or the climber needed a spot, or if for some reason I needed to move while belaying (e.g. the climb went around a corner and I had to move to be able to see).

A tie down helps to stabilise the direction of the pull. When being pulled off their feet, many people (esp. novices) will put a hand out to steady themselves, sometimes as reflex. What if that is their brake hand?

Chuck Norris
23/07/2008
6:53:04 PM
On 23/07/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 23/07/2008 hangdog wrote:
>>>
>>The five step method works (its not hard to do!)
>
>Is this 5 step method similar to the 5 step Queensland method that I was
>indoctrinated with?
>
>Step 1 Say to the leader, "Gorn! Get up there; ya fat hairy slapper"
>
>Step 2 Feed out several metres of slack
>
>Step 3 Start arranging the packs etc into a nice comfy seat
>
>Step 4 Put your walkman/radio/iPod on
>
>Step 5 Vague out whilst looking at the view
>

The effete viictorian lifestyle has clearly got to you and made you soft Eduardo. Where is the pointy
stick step? and the light a spliff step? the offbelay take a piss step?

Crimpmaster
23/07/2008
7:31:14 PM
In OzA defense I have been told to anchor if I needed to by gym staff. I also think that some people who do not climb as often outdoors can become complacent about technique if they make it a habit to anchor down every time they belay. I have seen people use one that is way too short.

Whether you anchor or not it does not and should not be a replacement for bad belaying.

Eduardo Slabofvic
23/07/2008
7:49:20 PM
On 23/07/2008 stugang wrote:
>The effete viictorian lifestyle has clearly got to you and made you soft
>Eduardo. Where is the pointy
>stick step? and the light a spliff step? the offbelay take a piss step?

Oh dear Stugang, you've been out of the game too long, you should stick to baby sitting and being
grumpy. I was referring only to belay technique, not motivation technique.

Queensland motivation techniques involve (as Stugang has eluded to above), Step 1 arrange numerous
pointy sticks (poking upwards) below the climb, Step 2 share a big "zoomer", Step 3 talk loudly about
climbing accidents, and Step 4 when everything’s quite, throw a big rock in the air and when it hits the
ground say something like "What was that! Someone's throwing rocks!". Then throw another one up in
the air and when it hits the ground start yelling expletives towards the top of the crag, repeat as required.
(NB this technique works best at Frog, and is not very good at Crookneck).

Chuck Norris
23/07/2008
8:47:31 PM
Hey Ed, I'd be less grumpy if there weren't as many cynts in the world.
simey
23/07/2008
9:00:22 PM
On 23/07/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Is this 5 step method similar to the 5 step Queensland method that I was
>indoctrinated with?
>
>Step 1 Say to the leader, "Gorn! Get up there; ya fat hairy slapper"
>
>Step 2 Feed out several metres of slack
>
>Step 3 Start arranging the packs etc into a nice comfy seat
>
>Step 4 Put your walkman/radio/iPod on
>
>Step 5 Vague out whilst looking at the view

Eduardo,
I've noticed that you are particularly slack with the five step method.

The number of times you have failed to put your walkman/iPod on - you are an accident waiting to happen.



james
24/07/2008
12:37:48 AM
you guys are all showing your age with this talk of "walkmans"

OzA
24/07/2008
8:42:36 AM
8 track cartage? I still have Vinyl, still think it puts out a much better sound than CD.

 Page 2 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 109
There are 109 messages in this topic.

 

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