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Minor ground fall off Little Thor; Dec Crag


rhinckle

6-May-2008
1:02:35 PM

monday after anzac day weekend, practicing roped solo aiding. started feeling uneasy and decided to back off. downclimbing is good practice, for whan it may be really necessary. gets more complicated with aid gear as well as pro.
best as i can reconstruct, was hanging off a hook, moving a cam down, with etrier & daisy chain attached, had modified grigri for pro. hook pops. as i am waiting for the grigri to take up, i hit the ground. after i gather my wits (not a lot to gather) realized that i had come unclipped from the grigri. i may have forgotten to tighten the screwgate, or all thge fidddling round with unaccustomed aid thinking and actions may have unscrewed it. in future will use a twist clip gate rather than a screwie.
how far? 5-6m.
injuries? bruised heel. am off crutches now now but still hobbling.
Many thanks to Kim, who carried my pack to the car and kept an eye on me, and Louise for going to the trouble of setting up, rapping down and retrieving my gear.

6-May-2008
2:03:35 PM

glad to hear you're ok - 6m ground falls can have far worse consequences than that ...

OTOH I think aiding a trade route like that is poor form. Aid gear often rips off key holds which free climbers use much more gently ... and even on a weekday the odds are pretty good that a slow aid ascent of a multi-star classic will be obstructing one or more free parties. how about choosing a zero star route next time...

simey

6-May-2008
2:18:10 PM

Aiding isn't going to rip holds off Little Thor. As for obstructing others wanting to do the route, odds are that you are only obstructing someone wanting to toprope it anyway. There are no shortage of routes for people to go and try at Mt Arapiles. I reckon Little Thor is a perfect little climb to practise aiding on, providing you are not pegging your way up it.

As for the reason for your accident, well it sounds pretty strange, but it shows what a clusterf--- solo-aiding can be and why you always want to back up your belay device by tying into the rope and then re-adjusting the knot regularly.


belayslave

6-May-2008
3:02:28 PM

I've not aided before, but have done a bit of industrial work and work in gyms rigging/route setting
etc. Best suggestion i can make is ditch a karabiner all together, use a Maillon Rapide instead. A 10mm
oval or D-shape would be the go. tighten just past finger tight with your handy leatherman and you'll
(never) rarely have any issues with it coming undone.

I know there are some lads on here who use Maillon in place of a biner, they'll be able to give some
pointers too no doubt!

Glad to hear you didn't have any series injuries though! that's a decent fall you took. Back on that horse
mate!


cruze

6-May-2008
3:05:36 PM

Glad to hear you are recovering well. Fortunately that route has a good landing area and fantastic access...


Superstu

6-May-2008
5:35:19 PM

what a bummer - hoping you get better


muki

6-May-2008
5:44:36 PM

On 6/05/2008 belayslave wrote:
>Best suggestion i can make is ditch a karabiner all together, use
>a Maillon Rapide instead. A 10mm
>oval or D-shape would be the go. tighten just past finger tight with
>your handy leatherman and you'll
>(never) rarely have any issues with it coming undone.

This is exactly what should have been used! a regular carabiner will turn and in the event of a fall will
be cross loaded (the weakest possible orientation for a normal aluminium biner)
Only ever use a steel Malion for this type of activity!
They have a guaranteed rating no matter what orientation they have.


SteveC

6-May-2008
6:37:10 PM

You could secure the gate and hold the biner in position with some tape. I did this recently during my solo aid self tutorial. My main concern is not the attachment, this should be beyond doubt before you leave the ground, but just how much these grigri machines slip in a fall. In testing the system i jumped off at less than 1 metre above gear and half a metre of slack on about 8 metres of rope total (newish 10.1 sterling) . The first time I pulled up with in a reasonable distance. the second jump gave me a least 1 metre further of slip. the device locked up justshort of myback up knots. really need to do some more trials with amount of slack and fall factor variables to see what the deal is.
I had an eddy fail to grab in a softfall belay scenario, which seems to be the issue with all these machines. I found the trango cinch much more sensitive for belaying, does anyone use these for soloing? I know the lever is shit. it needs more MA
One other thing with the gri gri, presumably common knowledge with in the sport climbing fraternity at least, but there is a definite minimum rope diameter. Both solo falls i took lockedthe device past its maximum point of camming. requiring an effort on the lever to bring the cam back through its maximum point and then to release. If i recall correctly the cinch does not suffer from this short coming. it continues to cam right up to the back wall of the device. not sure about other devices. Its all food for thought amongst the gearophiles out there.

kieranl

6-May-2008
7:10:00 PM

On 6/05/2008 simey wrote:
>Aiding isn't going to rip holds off Little Thor.
Using hooks can cause some rock damage though so avoid using those on well-trodden routes.


muki

6-May-2008
8:22:21 PM

On 6/05/2008 SteveC wrote:
>You could secure the gate and hold the biner in position with some tape.

this would still be inferior to a steel malion that does not rely on a piece of tape for safety !

>I did this recently during my solo aid self tutorial. My main concern is
>not the attachment, this should be beyond doubt before you leave the ground,
>but just how much these grigri machines slip in a fall.

I have taken many falls on the solo aid gri gri setup and find that slippage usually occurs when the fall
does not immediately load the gri gri, as in an outward fall, or a slow slide down slab.

>In testing the system i jumped off at less than 1 metre above gear and half a metre of
>slack on about 8 metres of rope total (newish 10.1 sterling) . The first
>time I pulled up with in a reasonable distance. the second jump gave me
>a least 1 metre further of slip. the device locked up justshort of myback
>up knots. really need to do some more trials with amount of slack and fall
>factor variables to see what the deal is.

yes practice is best to learn all the aspects of this facet of climbing.

>I had an eddy fail to grab in a softfall belay scenario, which seems to
>be the issue with all these machines. I found the trango cinch much more
>sensitive for belaying, does anyone use these for soloing? I know the lever
>is shit. it needs more MA

from a lot of feed back from others I'm led to believe these tend to shred the rope.

>One other thing with the gri gri, presumably common knowledge with in
>the sport climbing fraternity at least, but there is a definite minimum
>rope diameter. Both solo falls i took lockedthe device past its maximum
>point of camming. requiring an effort on the lever to bring the cam back
>through its maximum point and then to release.

I regularly use a 9.4 rope on my gri gri to rope solo, and have never had the cam over cam to the point
where it is difficult to open again, how much do you weigh? this could be a factor, the only other thing
that could cause this is that the belay is not dynamic (you really should study this properly if you
intend to do it more often!) or the rope is so soft that it is deforming inside the cam, allowing it to over
cam.

>If i recall correctly the cinch does not suffer from this short coming. it continues to cam right
>up to the back wall of the device. not sure about other devices. Its all
>food for thought amongst the gearophiles out there.

if you go to bigwalls dot com look for the article and photos I submitted regarding "solo aid" it's under
the wikipedia section, it has all the relevant info and best practice usage of the equipment including
the construction of dynamic belays, on route auto blocking, and general tips gleaned from many years
of experience rope soloing, this is the best way to use the system, free climb whilst laying gear (just
like a regular lead) then switch to solo aid when the going gets tougher than you can free climb. BP


rhinckle

8-May-2008
10:25:43 AM

On 6/05/2008 WM wrote:
>glad to hear you're ok - 6m ground falls can have far worse consequences
>than that ...
>
>OTOH I think aiding a trade route like that is poor form. Aid gear often
>rips off key holds which free climbers use much more gently ... and even
>on a weekday the odds are pretty good that a slow aid ascent of a multi-star
>classic will be obstructing one or more free parties. how about choosing
>a zero star route next time...

no other parties wanting to do that route. no hammering (nuts, cams, hooks, bird beaks)
but that's a good point, about possible damage though, that i'll bear in mind in future.
and what better thing to do with crap routes than unnatural things.

(did not remove any holds, BTW, or change any features)

it's wierd shit aiding, still seeing if it is worthwhile addition to my possibilities. seems harder than climbing in a wierd way. would much rather climb little thor the natural way, and didn't have a partner on that day.

oh, and bomber pro:
was talking about a BD twist lock, with the automatic locking and annoying little button. i.e. something that cannot accidently unscrew. i own one, but never otherwise use it.

BTW anyone know who's thumbprint is moulded into the plastic bit?


rhinckle

8-May-2008
10:37:27 AM

just out of interest, when solo leading with grigri i use an 11m rope, usually in a day pack, that feeds down through the gri gri with the flap filed off and a small hole drilled to take a loop of cord that i hold in my teeth. This maintins the orientation of the grigri for best rope feed while climbing, but is a safety feature if i happen to fall upside down. when grigri will still put itself in best position (provided i open my mouth).
It has always worked in the past. However try my best not to fall and usually succeed.

chalkischeap

8-May-2008
1:30:30 PM

Seriously man, give up solo aiding before you kill yourself.

Tweaking your present system may not save you next time you have a “learning experience”.

Find an aid partner or do something else – anything but solo aiding.

(not having a go at you but reading this thread is like watching someone at the crag making dangerous mistakes – sometimes you have to say something)

Paul

8-May-2008
2:04:16 PM

On 8/05/2008 chalkischeap wrote:
>Seriously man, give up solo aiding before you kill yourself.
>
>Tweaking your present system may not save you next time you have a “learning
>experience”.
>
>Find an aid partner or do something else – anything but solo aiding.
>
>(not having a go at you but reading this thread is like watching someone
>at the crag making dangerous mistakes – sometimes you have to say something)
>

Find someone with a high level of experience in solo aiding who can help and guide you.


evanbb

8-May-2008
2:11:32 PM

On 8/05/2008 chalkischeap wrote:
>Find an aid partner or do something else – anything but solo aiding.

Come on, it's not that dangerous. Macca's still alive isn't he?

Lots of people think climbing in general is abhorently dangerous. it's not the sport that's dangerous, but the people. I don't see why solo aid need be any more risky than any of the other ludicrous activities we're involved with.

8-May-2008
2:12:21 PM

On 8/05/2008 rhinckle wrote:
>>no hammering (nuts, cams, hooks, bird beaks)
>but that's a good point, about possible damage though, that i'll bear
>in mind in future. (did not remove any holds, BTW, or change any features)

good to hear - but note Kieran's comment re hooks. you (and others) might be interested to know that even Punks has had at least one sizable hold ripped off by aiding - and if aiding can rip holds off Punks it can probably rip holds off just about anything.


muki

8-May-2008
5:28:41 PM

Hey ti, check this out it covers all the bases.

On 6/05/2008 bomber pro wrote:

>if you go to bigwalls dot com look for the article and photos I submitted regarding "solo aid" it's under
>the wikipedia section, it has all the relevant info and best practice usage of the equipment including
>the construction of dynamic belays, on route auto blocking, and general tips gleaned from many years
>of experience rope soloing, this is the best way to use the system, free climb whilst laying gear (just
>like a regular lead) then switch to solo aid when the going gets tougher than you can free climb. BP


muki

8-May-2008
8:07:05 PM

Sorry, bigwalls.net, look under the big wall wiki in the section of big wall equipment, then search for "solo
belay" there are lots of other articles that discuss technique and equipment. good luck and happy aiding.


Organ Pipe

10-May-2008
7:53:40 AM

On 8/05/2008 WM wrote:
>if aiding can rip holds off Punks it can probably
>rip holds off just about anything.

If a hook rips off a hold, sure, or bashing away with a mallet then sure, but aid can and is much more than hooks and hammered gear.

I'm getting into aid in a big way of late, (really loving it) and have selected routes where I can use my existing rack (so no hooks etc). So all my aid so far consists of a little more than body weight on normal trad gear.

I'd therefor argue that a lead fall (by a freeclimber) on the same line as my aid climbing would be far more stressfull on the rock than my aiding. Even if I fell, my placements are much closer together when aiding than my freeclimbing placements.

I'm a big believer in preserving the rock for future generations as much as possible, and I'm not trying to state that aid will never result in damage to the rock, but I think we need to be careful about suggesting that aid climbing = vandalism. Far from it.

hipster

10-May-2008
8:05:57 AM

On 10/05/2008 Organ Pipe wrote:
>I'd therefor argue that a lead fall (by a freeclimber) on the same line
>as my aid climbing would be far more stressfull on the rock than my aiding.
>Even if I fell, my placements are much closer together when aiding than
>my freeclimbing placements.

Aid climbing results in way more placements that are ALL weighted compared to free climbing, even though they aren't shock loaded. Free climbers will, on averages over time, shock load the occasional piece..way less wear and tear on placements.Over time aiding, even just on gear, will result in way more impact on a route IMHO.
Happy aiding though :)
>

There are 34 messages in this topic.