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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 89
Author
The Tower - Ground Fall

gordoste
4/01/2007
1:28:20 PM
i have it on good authority that they were trying to do multiple 55m abseils with a single 60m rope. they had cut their rope open to extract the core when the s**t hit the fan

tmarsh
4/01/2007
1:43:41 PM
Part of the problem is that carrot/bolt plates were invented at a time when all biners were made from round or at the very worst, oval bar stock. Modern forging techniques are allowing the manufacturers to squeeze the metal out over the longitudinal axis, making the biner stronger or alternatively lighter for the same strength. As the biner gets more and more ovalised - making it better and better at resisting the forces from falls - the biner gets more likely to fail to fill the 'hole' in the carrot/bolt plate interface. The wire gate phenomenon is even more disastrous.

So we've got one standard anchored back in the 60s which is totally dependent on gear which has been in a constant state of evolution since then.

The good Dr
4/01/2007
1:56:14 PM
Just to remove the speculation (I, along with two others saw the accident). Fortunately the climbers will make a full recovery. Rest assured he will be sore for a little while.

I would like to point out that the emergency response was excellent, well co-ordinated and very helpful. Thanks go to the local CFA members who were there first (local farmers who knew the area very well and were up to the site very quickly once provided with directions), the Halls Gap Police, the Paramedics from Horsham, the Chopper pilot and paramedics, the SES and Parks.

The bolt was clipped with a wire gate. The hanger itself took some effort to put onto the bolt (head size marginal - metric). The climber was on a traversing section where he was above and a little to the side of the bolt. As a consequence of the rope angle, the draw was being held vertical above the bolt. We surmised that this allowed the bolt plat to drop and potentially jam a little on the bolt head. The climbers waist was about 5-600mm above the bolt when he fell/dropped onto the bolt. At this point a narrow section of the carabiner presented the profile at the bolt head. The climber did not become detached instantly. There was a distinct noise as the draw and plate became detached. The climber fell and about 3-4m off the ground had some force absorbed by a #2RP which subsequently snapped. Total fall I estimated to be 8-9m (which differs from the other estimates, but it is only an estimate)

Upon inspection it was not obvious which part of the carabiner presented the low profile. This can be difficult to judge on many carabiners without testing each carabiner on the varying types of carrots out there. I have done some checking myself and have come to the conclusion that many modern carabiners can be a problem with carrots and hangers. Wire gates are the obvious problem. I have seen a number of carabiners of various kinds become detached in this manner, usually below a climber with other gear in between, fortunately.

Problem types:

1. Wire gates
2. Narrow nose profiles
3. Narrow spines
4. Small light carabiners

As carabiner manufacturers are striving for better technology (usually lighter and as strong/stronger) we are likely to see more carabiners on racks where disconnection from carrots may be an issue. Do we continue using carrots when the changing technology of carabiners may be outdating/compromising their safety? Look around at peoples racks you will see a lot of small carabiners. They are only trying to reduce the weight (if you have 40 crabs and can reduce the weight 10-15g each thats about 1/2kg less to carry).

The climber only had wire gates in his rack for the climb and was likely unaware of the risk (I have not checked with him and I am sure he will be asked at some stage).

I hope that this information is useful.

muki
4/01/2007
1:56:17 PM
The fellow who fell is a mate and was lucky to survive. I would take his holinesses(the lama) advise and
post your ireverant dribble where it wont offend any one.
this is an accident report of a ground fall.
hate to see someone take the piss when you deck out and spear in.
FangDangler
4/01/2007
2:05:24 PM
On 4/01/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>The fellow who fell is a mate and was lucky to survive. I would take his
>holinesses(the lama) advise and
>post your ireverant dribble where it wont offend any one.
>this is an accident report of a ground fall.
>hate to see someone take the piss when you deck out and spear in.

Don't have a cow (or pig), chill!

cruze
4/01/2007
2:09:41 PM
The climbing community has known for quite some time that wire gates (or small profile krabs) and bolt plates should not be used together. The fact that it still happens means to me that people are ill-informed and/or not aware of the limitations of their gear. In both cases the solution to the problem may present itself through education such as a note attached to each bolt plate (RP, PFH, etc. - removed after purchsing obviously) warning of that pieces incompatibility with small profile krabs, and/or the eventual phasing out of carrot style bolts for the reasons mentioned above concerning the move to lower profile pieces of gear.

Moreover, a general appreciation that reliance should only be placed in gear that you know the limitations of will help prevent serious accidents from occurring. Routes equipped with fixed gear often (at some point(s) on the route) place complete reliance in a single piece protecting you from hitting the ground. In the same way that we try to avoid situations where a single marginal piece is doing the same, then we should be aware that placing reliance on a single fixed piece can often represent more of an objective hazard than if it were not there at all.

I wish the injured climber a speedy recovery.

rodw
4/01/2007
2:37:28 PM
On 4/01/2007 cruze wrote:
> Routes equipped with fixed gear often (at some point(s)
>on the route) place complete reliance in a single piece protecting you
>from hitting the ground.

When I put up new routes in most cases, were I can, I make sure that apart from the first bolt, if any fail (or they fall while trying to clip it)the bolt below will more than likely stop a grounder or ledge fall. On ledgy climbs or shorter routes it can tend to make em look a little over bolted, but thats just what i choose to do, and since most my new routes are in the lower grades I come form the angle that alot of newbs will get on em...and unlike years gone bye.....they just dont have the learning experience to weigh up all the possible falling scenarios and outcomes, ie they see a bolt and think its safe.

If people keep putting up bold routes with marginal gear and/or very spaced bolts these things will happen. Ive got nothin against bold routes, I have the experience to know my limitations, but unless you want to sanitise everything..we are just gonna have to live with it....and with more accidents come more scrutiny about our sport from the authorities.

Im not commentinmg on this accident in particular, i wasn't there, do not know the route in question, so just commenting generally.

Like Cruze I wish him a speedy recovery.

gordoste
4/01/2007
3:51:12 PM
bomber mate sorry if my post offended you. i wasn't laughing at the bloke who fell, rather at the outlandish practices suggested in other threads

i hope your mate is back climbing soon.

muki
4/01/2007
4:03:27 PM
Hey alister ,
think about it a bit and put the shoe on the other foot
you seem to think its ok to put some rubbish comment about how the accident happened on the thread
It was my mate who fell, not yours, you think maybe you would have a cow if I put some crap comment
about how your mate decked out on the thread about his accident.
kieranl
4/01/2007
4:07:00 PM
Thanks to the Good Dr for his detailed account. Plenty of useful info for people to think about.
Bob Saki
4/01/2007
4:20:51 PM
On 4/01/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>Hey alister ,
>think about it a bit and put the shoe on the other foot
>you seem to think its ok to put some rubbish comment about how the accident
>happened on the thread
>It was my mate who fell, not yours, you think maybe you would have a cow
>if I put some crap comment
>about how your mate decked out on the thread about his accident.


what's your name - I'm curious??

muki
4/01/2007
4:24:09 PM
On 4/01/2007 gordoste wrote:
>bomber mate sorry if my post offended you. i wasn't laughing at the bloke
>who fell, rather at the outlandish practices suggested in other threads
>
>i hope your mate is back climbing soon.

No problems mate. you seem like a nice bloke from the brief meeting we once had, just wish that it
was'nt a mate of mine, and that it didn't make me so sensitive.
jokes are fine by me on the appropriate thread.
NEVERCLIMBED32
5/01/2007
6:32:28 PM
Easy to bang on about carrots and and wire gates.
From what 'the good Dr' said in his post it sounds like had the dented dude clipped with a longer draw/sling there would be nothing to talk about here.

A speedy recovery to the dented.
MJH
7/01/2007
6:49:57 PM
It was a busy couple of days in the Vic Range. The following day police and SES where out again searching for 2 walkers, who appeared on the Harrop Track later in the day.
It appears there were only 2 climbers up at the cliff. If so, my thoughts go to the injured climber's partner who had to deal with realities of an accident at a fairly remote crag. It is odd that there is such a mixture of anchors at the Tower. Carrots, fixed hangers, U bolts, chains and other assorted junk.
I think carrots are fine on slabs and lower angled face climbs.

nmonteith
8/01/2007
12:35:03 AM
wow - go away for a few weeks and the shit hits the fan! The route in question was high on kent/myselfs
list of routes to 'fix-up' on my next trip in there. We plan to place an additional bolt between bolts 1 & 2
(where the RP was placed). When ever I have done the route i place a bomber #0.75 camalot in the
horizontal crack about 3m right of the 2nd bolt.

I presume the track is now a super highway after SES/Choppers ect were sent in?

nmonteith
8/01/2007
12:44:33 AM
The Tower was never supposed to be a 'sports crag' - thats the reason we used bomber (glue-in) carrots
for many of the routes. As the crag evolved over the years the original routes have been overshadowed
by the more popular newer harder sport routes. Thats life. Good trad placments are intergral to most
routes at the Tower. Take care out there.

nmonteith
8/01/2007
12:50:33 AM
On 2/01/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>some people think that if they are replacing old with new, then make it
>look like the old shit they pulled
>out! hence the stainless glue in carot bolt!.what a piece of shit
> but really this is just a joke, people we are definitely in the new millenium,
>why not keep pace with all
>the safety advances made since we all started climbing rocks.
>We don't hip belay any more,we don't use layed rope,we don't climb in
>hobnail boots,
>So why place a carot.
>Nobody else in the world does, not even in the blueys, its all fixed hangers,
>its still a bolt, just a good
>one not a yesteryear imitation.
>oh and I dont want to hear that it best suits the character of the climb,or
>some clap trap about
>ambience.
>The climbs character comes from the position the climbing moves and the
>protection,end of story
>if the protection is crapy then it degrades the experience, not the other
>way around.
>overseas the whole bolt plate thing is a bit of a joke, but the jokes
>on you, in the early days it was
>cheap to file a bolt down an bang it in with a hammer, they didnt have
>much else in the way of a
>choice, but today there is no excuse for this lapse in judgment.
> Place good gear, the correct gear, or dont place anything at all. the
>bomb

Its this sort of attitude that creates 'problems' with the older generation of climbers (who will chop new
bolts). I just enjoyed a great week at Point Perp where i happily clipped lots of carrots. No problems
there. If you have a problem with carrots go climb something else.

Biners unclip from FH's and U-bolts as well. If you are really that worried always use fat screwgates on
each and every bolt.

Carrots are much less visible to the eye, and at good stances are easy enough to clip and use.
Carrots are like trad, they must be used correctly with the right gear (ie not wiregates). A good
trademan never blames his tools.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/01/2007
10:12:35 AM
Some good posts / ideas on this thread.

>Biners unclip from FH's and U-bolts as well. >If you are really that worried always use fat screwgates on each and every bolt.
(snip)
>Carrots are like trad, they must be used correctly with the right gear (ie not wiregates). A good trademan never blames his tools.
Well said nm.

The good Dr wrote 4/01/2007
>Fortunately the climbers will make a full recovery
Good to hear it, and glad we can learn (yet again) from the experiences of others.

bomber pro wrote 4/01/2007
>hate to see someone take the piss when you deck out and spear in.
It’s called ‘black humour’ mate, and has a fine Aussie tradition dating back to the trenches at least.

I am glad to see that you are now past having a 'sensitive cow' and have made up with your protagonist, however re your
>jokes are fine by me on the appropriate thread.
… being the internet, I suggest you are up against it when you show your sensitivity like that.

Also interesting to see your comments of 2/01/2007 re carrots morphed after acknowledging it was an inappropriate use of a wiregate krab plus climber-error-of-judgement (in placing this kind of pro) issue.

At the risk of inflaming your sensitivity I would like to point out a couple of grey areas in your logic that I disagree with;
>So why place a carot.
>Nobody else in the world does, not even in the blueys, its all fixed hangers,
>its still a bolt, just a good one not a yesteryear imitation.
Yes, it is appropriate to move with the times; however many carrot bolts are still out there and are going to be part of our climbing culture for a very long time yet, … at least until they are all replaced or fail !

>oh and I dont want to hear that it best suits the character of the climb,or some clap trap about ambience.
>The climbs character comes from the position the climbing moves and the protection,end of story
>if the protection is crapy then it degrades the experience, not the other way around.
Does not crappy pro become part of the character of a climb?
I personally am in favour of keeping ‘bold’ climbs bold.
Non existent or crappy pro has considerably enhanced the bold character and my subsequent climbing experience, on those routes of that nature that I have done, and others similar that I yet aspire to, ... which is far from being a degraded experience imo.

>today there is no excuse for this lapse in judgment.
> Place good gear, the correct gear, or dont place anything at all. the
>bomb
If I feel the need I will place whatever it takes (including a carrot at the time!), to keep me safe within the bounds I have set myself. My ethic/morality? keeps me off the boldest climb/s until I feel I can take them on, on their own (lack of pro) terms, for I am a flawed climber / human after all.
:)



Big bro
8/01/2007
3:56:41 PM
I have just joined up with this site,I have been lurking on a mates computer,and find that the coments
made by one of the posters in here to be a bit harsh,(having a sensitive cow)whilst same poster then
back slaps his buddie who also was and has been equally rude in the past,(Well said nm)
it seems like a small group of you are all having a go at one guy on this site and he may be abrupt and to
the point at times,but the amount of good stuff he writes in about is great.he seems to have kick started
this thread!,and his article on beginers stuff was totally awsome,but all you guys do is bag him any time
he says anything,
I find it hard to believe that you would say(It’s called ‘black humour’)and(you are up against it when you
show your sensitivity like that.)it was his buddie man,thats cold!
kp
8/01/2007
4:06:02 PM
I placed the carrot bolts because:

a) they were cheap (i was a student with no money at the time)
b) i liked them.

Since then i have gotten a job of sorts, and have equipped routes with either U's or FH's... as i find onsighting routes with carrot bolts frustrating.

I wish the unlucky person a speedy recovery.

Kent

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There are 89 messages in this topic.

 

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