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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 5 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28/05/2017
9:58:40 PM
On 28/05/2017 kieranl wrote:
>On 28/05/2017 Duang Daunk wrote:
>>On 28/05/2017 Paul wrote:
>>>Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for safe lowering off.
>>
>>Given the irony of your example, how do you see that working bro?
>
>After adding more signs telling people to read the signs.

Like these ones?



widewetandslippery
28/05/2017
10:18:15 PM
On 28/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>>>On 28/05/2017 mr curly wrote:
>>>And to the point mentioned a few times in this thread that NO-ONE abs
>>>off sports routes, and whether you ab or lower is ALWAYS sorted out
>before
>>>you climb, well, what if itís not clear from the ground whether there
>are
>>>shackles on the rings. Itís the done thing to ab off rings without shackles
>>>rather than lower to reduce the wear on the rings. And if you donít
>know
>>>before you leave the ground whatís up there then you will need to work
>>>it out when you get there.
>
>>You lower off the rings, numbnuts! See, this is the kind of stupid which
>>gets people killed. Again, nobody at a sport crag has an atc these days.
>>There is no option to rap, you thread and lower and bolt wear be damned.
>>Bring shackles next time, you muppet!
>>
>?
>I thought accepted practice in that situation was to clip ones own quickdraws
>to the anchor and lower off those, at least until the end of the climbing
>session when last down maybe gets lowered off the rings...

i think odh said that above. like the sign



Wendy
29/05/2017
9:14:21 AM
Wow, even M9 gets it and I don't know that he's been sport climbing in his life ...

Changing words and practices around just makes for more possibility of accidents. That's why I don't use "secure" or "off belay" to say that I am safe. Similarly why I don't say I am safe at an anchor unless I want to be completely taken off belay.

Climbing safety is a responsibility of both climber and belayer. It's kind of silly to be arguing about that. As a belayer, I check my climber is tied in and ready, I monitor that they have appropriate gear, rope management and clipping and if I have any doubt about any calls, I stay on belay until clarified. At a sport crag, I expect them to clip and lower. If they say something that suggests otherwise, like "safe" I ask for clarification - a simple are you going to rap or lower - and if they say lowering, I conclude they are one of these misguided people who need some education about calls, keep them on belay and explain the problem when they get down.

As a climber, I check that my belayer is on belay and ready, I trust them to remain that way through out the climb and to let me know if they notice a problem such as the rope is caught around a nubbin, i've missed a bolt or backclipped in the midst of putting 5 runners in the space of 1m. When I get to anchors, I clip and lower. As opposed to when I am falling (although you would know by the screams anyway) I give some warning that I am ready to weight the rope such as "Ok, Joe Bloggs, got me?" or "on you". Even if I was to say take, I trust that my belayer would not be stupid enough to think I said safe, because no one should ever say safe at an anchor where lowering is the expected practice! I expect them to ask for clarification and remain on belay whenever there is doubt. I also expect to hear some response such as "ok wendy got you".

If I am somewhere where the norm is not clip and lower and I intend to clip and lower, then I will explain that before I leave the ground (ie, lots of the anchors that Damo hates so much at Araps). Ditto if belaying, when this is an option, I ask which they intend to do.

Climbing is about mutual responsibility, clear communication and if in doubt, covering all bases with the action least likely to do more that cause tedious rope handling - eg leaving someone on belay and discovering they are hauling up lots of rope, but nevertheless, staying on belay until clarified because they might just be pulling up rope for an anchor or running it out on easy ground.

All this is basically irrelevant to the original case. We have no idea what happened. Climbing clubs can be anything from complete beginners to groups of experienced climbers on a trip together. These situations are rather different. If someone has previously demonstrated they are competent to be left to clean a belay and rap, that's the appropriate thing to do in that situation and that was the game plan, likely the error was the climber's fault. If they were not competent to clean and lower and were left to do so, that would be irresponsible on behalf of the more experienced climbers regardless of being in a club or not. If they had a fuchup of communication because of these myriad ideas of what to do at an anchor, we as a community need to encourage standardisation of calls and procedures in the way we have managed to for other calls and procedures, and reinforce that both parties are responsible for ensuring they have played their role in maintaining safety.
One Day Hero
29/05/2017
10:11:56 AM
Yay, Wendy's here! I was starting to worry that you wouldn't join in.

The only thing I want to hear from these Queensland idiots is that it is unacceptable for a belayer to take their climber off without being instructed to do so by the climber. They have steadfastly refused to acknowledge that point.

So, Queensland idiots...assuming that the belayer is reasonably experienced, do you agree that it is unacceptable for the belayer to take their climber off belay whilst the climber is on the rock, under any circumstances, unless instructed to do so by the climber?

Do you also agree that accepting the responsibility of belaying is the equivalent of accepting the responsibility of driving a car. And further, the abdication of said belaying responsibility (while the climber is off the ground) would be the moral equivalent of shutting your eyes and taking your hands off the wheel while driving 100km/hr with passengers in the vehicle?
Mr Curly
29/05/2017
8:04:28 PM
Wow, Iíve just been roasted on social media. Fair enough really given my intro.
Creativity Ė full marks. The talking pube bit Ė love it.
Comprehension Ė still a work in progress.

ODH, yes, you are right. What you have described is what should happen except the bit about not rapping off rings without shackles but whatever. Climb, clip, lower. Not exactly sure how you could read into my comments that I was against this, except that I described a few exception scenarios, maybe itís a matter of comprehension. And, right again, with the view that it is apparent madness that one minute you are trusting the belayer to catch a fall, but the next minute there is no faith at all.

Thing is though, youíve described what should happen, but when there is a change-over involved, it clearly doesnít always happen given the accidents that have occurred. So why the antagonism with the idea that the climber has a responsibility of making sure things are OK before they get lowered? I just donít get it.

Another clear comprehension failure: where in my post is the implication that I say safe when I get to the anchors on a sports climb? I canít find it, there is no implication. I never do it Ė if Iím being lowered. Oh, thatís right, Iím not meant to do that, we all have to do every climb the same. Difference = error.

Of all the insults, the one that hurt the most was that Iím a Queenslander. But before I crawl away and fossilise, how did you know I was a dinosaur?
One Day Hero
29/05/2017
9:28:28 PM
On 29/05/2017 Mr Curly wrote:
>Wow, Iíve just been roasted on social media.

I hope you don't take it to heart, it's more me than you, tbh

>Comprehension Ė still a work in progress.

See, I reckon this bit is more you than me.

>Thing is though, youíve described what should happen, but when there is
>a change-over involved, it clearly doesnít always happen given the accidents
>that have occurred. So why the antagonism with the idea that the climber
>has a responsibility of making sure things are OK before they get lowered?

I don't have any antagonism towards that idea. I have extreme antagonism towards the idea that if the climber has full responsibility for their own safety it must mean that the belayer no longer has any responsibility. This is what RAB is implying, but please feel free to offer a suggestion on how to interpret his posts differently?

>Another clear comprehension failure: where in my post is the implication
>that I say safe when I get to the anchors on a sports climb? I canít find
>it, there is no implication. I never do it Ė if Iím being lowered.

I don't know where you think I suggested that? If you click 'reply' to the post in question, you can quote the post, and shred it one sentence at a time.

>Of all the insults, the one that hurt the most was that Iím a Queenslander.

Sorry, you seemed to be on the same wavelength as the xxxx brigade......are you from Tassie by any chance?

> But before I crawl away and fossilise, how did you know I was a dinosaur?

Complete failure to recognise current climbing culture and practices. I shouldn't have to tell you that routinely clipping in hard before lowering simply isn't a thing anymore. Nothing new has really been invented in the couple of decades I've been in the game, but the 'median climbing style' has shifted dramatically. I don't neccessarily agree with where climbing has gone, nor participate regularly in consumer cragging, but I don't have my head in the sand either.

You should really take a trip to the Blue Mountains or Nowra, and just sit and watch for a day. Get back in touch with how things work day to day in modern climbing.

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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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