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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
Rescued in Blue Mtns May 31 2015, the analysis.
mikllaw
22-Jun-2015
6:29:37 PM
This got some airplay recently
http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/05/31/18/43/daredevil-rock-climber-lucky-to-be-alive-after-getting-tangled-in-rope-on-cliff-face

Richard Delaney and Ropelab have interviewed climber and identified yet another way to have issues abseiling;-
http://www.ropelab.com.au/prusik-self-belay-issues/

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22-Jun-2015
7:20:15 PM
Thanks for starting this thread mikl / RD - Ropelab; and thanks also to the climber involved for sharing his experience with you for us to gain benefit from it.
Rightarmbad
22-Jun-2015
7:49:08 PM
Yet another example of a so called safety system compromising the primary function.
There were two people, personal backups are simply not required.
First down gets a top belay backup and second down gets a bottom belay backup.

Far safer, far quicker, far simpler.

There is only one circumstance that reqires personal backups and that is when you are the only one there.

Sabu
22-Jun-2015
8:08:52 PM
Very interesting scenario. I was wondering if it would be possible to correct or escape from and am thinking the only viable alternative would be to cut away the prusik line (which would obviously require having a knife on you). Should be fine so long as you keep the device locked off and either you are a second is able to sort out the remaining cord before pulling the ropes.
Dave_S
22-Jun-2015
9:10:25 PM
On 22/06/2015 Sabu wrote:
>Very interesting scenario. I was wondering if it would be possible to correct
>or escape from and am thinking the only viable alternative would be to
>cut away the prussik line (which would obviously require having a knife
>on you).

Difficult to say without having experienced being stuck in that awkward position, but with another prusik you could attach it above the rappel device, extend it with a sling if necessary to make a leg loop, stand up in that to unweight and then loosen the original prusik, then lower your weight down onto the belay device.
mikllaw
22-Jun-2015
9:39:01 PM
I carry 2 x 4mm shoelace slings about 100mm loop sized. You can pull rope up and tie a legloop to the lower one. Weighs about 30gr. Will fix most problems
patto
23-Jun-2015
1:32:27 AM
For years I have been trying to stress the limitations and potential dangers of using prussiks as backups. People get complacent because they have "a backup" but many times it is ineffective or dangerous.

There have been numerous incidents where prussiks have failed and the abseiler slid out of control (including on on video). There have been numerous rescues where the prussik gets stuck and unable to be released. There have been at least two well known deaths in Australia involving stuck prussiks.


IMO a leg loop is not a place to attach your prussik. There are numerous reasons why not, this incident is yet another one.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
23-Jun-2015
10:05:11 AM
Pedant spelling alert (disappointed you didn't beat me ajf!), it is Prusik not the many variants!...


This recue analysis is an interesting scenario twist, that I had not considered before.
Coming from an era of waist belays and later swami-seat harnesses, back then we were familiar with Prusik's and the use thereof.
More than that, it was also common practice for us to trial the variations in a controlled environment and learn just how difficult it can actually be to use the techniques and correct any 'what if snafu's' that arose.

Mikls remedy suggestion of using an extra (albeit lightweight) Prusik to enable tying off a loop of rope from below as a leg loop is a good one.

My first thought for what I'd do in that situation was to pull up rope from below and pass it underneath my backside then up parallel to the belay device/rope above, and half hitch/tie it off* above the belay device, as a sort of impromptu bosuns chair arrangement.
This would buy time and save energy to sort out a solving strategy that would (for me) have involved pulling up further rope and half hitch tying off* to make a foot loop to stand in, and then correct the locked off Prusik, or at least disconnect it from the harness.

I have found single handed holding a half hitched-off secondary rope to be quite achievable though it can be mildly strenuous, mostly in maintaining balance, though leaning against the ropes helps with this. The beauty of only half hitch tying off is that when the abseil is ready to be resumed, it is easy to drop the extra rope involved which effectively unties itself, and prior to that the hitch is never out of reach as it can be slid down the tensioned portion of rope till the abseil device takes weight again.

* * Note: It is important to continually hold such a hitch locked off while in use, otherwise it is ineffective.
These days extra Prusik's and items such as Tiblocs make such manoeuvres a lot easier and less risky, but involve carrying more stuff...


maxdacat
23-Jun-2015
10:49:03 AM
On 23/06/2015 patto wrote:

>IMO a leg loop is not a place to attach your prussik. There are numerous
>reasons why not, this incident is yet another one.
>

I disagree but I'm always amused when people insist on a screwgate to attach it to the leg loop.....what do they think might happen?

phillipivan
23-Jun-2015
12:49:47 PM
On 22/06/2015 Rightarmbad wrote:

>There is only one circumstance that reqires personal backups and that
>is when you are the only one there.

Bullshit. As a starter, as soon as communication is potentially compromised between party members, it's a terrible idea.

Clarification: lowering the 1st person down is the terrible idea...
PDRM
23-Jun-2015
12:54:33 PM
On 22/06/2015 Sabu wrote:
>Very interesting scenario. I was wondering if it would be possible to correct
>or escape from and am thinking the only viable alternative would be to
>cut away the prusik line (which would obviously require having a knife
>on you). Should be fine so long as you keep the device locked off and either
>you are a second is able to sort out the remaining cord before pulling
>the ropes.

+1 yep carry a small knife
peteclimbs
23-Jun-2015
1:24:48 PM
The reason people attach the prusik to the leg loop is to create some distance between the prusik and the belay device so it doesn't get jammed up. This is assuming that you're using the prusik below the belay device on the brake strand. FWIW my approach to rigging this is simply:

Step 1: Extend belay device away from the belay loop using a sling or a PAS.
Step 2: Attach prusik to belay loop (not leg loop)

It's quick to rig and comfy to sit in if you have to hang out for a while. At the risk of stating the obvious, rigging the prusik below the belay device has the major advantage for me of eliminating the risk of the prusik locking up and being hard to unload.

Sabu
23-Jun-2015
1:29:53 PM
On 23/06/2015 peteclimbs wrote:
>The reason people attach the prusik to the leg loop is to create some distance
>between the prusik and the belay device so it doesn't get jammed up. This
>is assuming that you're using the prusik below the belay device on the
>brake strand. FWIW my approach to rigging this is simply:
>
>Step 1: Extend belay device away from the belay loop using a sling or
>a PAS.
>Step 2: Attach prusik to belay loop (not leg loop)

I also use this technique and wonder why this is not more routinely adopted?
The added benefit of this setup is one can attach the device low on the PAS (but high enough to be out of the way for the backup) such that the remaining length of the PAS can be used to anchor in out at each belay station.

Macciza
23-Jun-2015
1:31:12 PM
Apparently the guy had a knife but did not use it for fear of cutting his abseil line ???
Knife isn't needed anyway, as he could easily use his shoelaces to cut the prusik ...
I would think that at the point you are taking your foot out of the leg loop it would be easier to instead use it as a footloop, stand up a little and take in some rope and sort that shit out . ..
gfdonc
23-Jun-2015
1:38:29 PM
I'm not a fan of using a prussic backup and don't teach it to beginners. If they're not confident abseiling I give them a belay. I'd rather focus on rapping properly. As you say, a fireman's is an easy option.

phillipivan
23-Jun-2015
1:45:21 PM
On 23/06/2015 Sabu wrote:
>about extending the belay device.

Extending the device also reduces the likely hood it will get jammed on your puffy jacket or other soft goods. It also keeps it in view which said puffy might otherwise obscure.

It's also easy to hang heavy loads off a belay device that has been extended, if it is necessary to abseil with heavy stuff.

Finally the abseil can be managed with one hand whether you use some additional brake or not.

Won't stop you zipping on the end of your line if that's your caper, or nightmare.

I think it's best to think of any variety of autoblock as a brake rather than a back up.
patto
23-Jun-2015
3:52:09 PM
Exactly extending the device offers all sorts of advantages and doesn't have you using a leg loop as a prussik attachment.

The leg loop is not intended for such purposes and there is no guarantee that it will be lower than the device thus no guarantee that the pussik won't contact the device and fail.

Regarding hanging heavy loads. I've performed a rescue abseil once. Extending the device was an obvious solution. That said 95% of the time I don't extend as I don't use a prussik.
simey
23-Jun-2015
4:38:53 PM
On 22/06/2015 mikllaw wrote:
>This got some airplay recently
>http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/05/31/18/43/daredevil-rock-climber-lucky-to-be-aliv
>-after-getting-tangled-in-rope-on-cliff-face
>
>Richard Delaney and Ropelab have interviewed climber and identified yet
>another way to have issues abseilling;-
>http://www.ropelab.com.au/prusik-self-belay-issues/

Excellent summary of the situation Richard regarding all the pros and cons and very well illustrated.
martym
23-Jun-2015
4:40:10 PM
On 22/06/2015 mikllaw wrote:
>I carry 2 x 4mm shoelace slings about 100mm loop sized. You can pull rope
>up and tie a legloop to the lower one. Weighs about 30gr. Will fix most
>problems
If it's just a case of I weighting the rope to remove a jammed prusik, couldn't you wrap a t-shirt around the taut rope & brute-force yourself up enough to shake the prusik loose?
patto
23-Jun-2015
5:10:00 PM
On 23/06/2015 martym wrote:
>If it's just a case of I weighting the rope to remove a jammed prusik,
>couldn't you wrap a t-shirt around the taut rope & brute-force yourself
>up enough to shake the prusik loose?

Try it at home or in a park off a tree. A taut rope can be very hard to get a purchase on, even some styles 'prussik types' of hitches have difficulty when the rope is taut. Again, some types of prussik hitches can lock off very tightly when loaded. Working them loose takes dexterity and time even when unloaded.

All in all carrying only one item that is usable as a prussik can lead to some big issues, Always have several on you. I've found typical 12mm slings effective as a prussik if you get the wraps right.

All this discussion becomes so much more relevant when canyoning. Try dealing with all these scenarios when you are cold and you fingers are numb. What about if you are in the middle of a torrent of water? I saw one poor girl flip upsidedown in a waterfall and effectively get waterboarded with a heavy flow of water. What are you going to do with stuck prussiks in such circumstances? (Your leg loop prussik is now touching/caught in you belay device.)

This guy was using a prussik type hitch on his leg loop, and he still fell 20m to the ground.

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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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