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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 35
Author
Araps accident 17th April 2014

nmonteith
25/04/2014
8:47:23 PM
On 25/04/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>In your scenario, what do you do to mitigate the fact that the belayer
>could also end up falling down (pulled off by the falling leader), the
>same gully?

I would get my belayer to hang down in the gully, attached to the anchor from above, with a quickdraw on the bolt.

>Call me callous if you like, but in my opinion, it is a better outcome
>if only the leader pays for the mistakes of inadequate protection made
>by the leader, instead of foisting that outcome onto the belayer as well.

There is no I in team. Minor injuries (a dislocated shoulder is a minor injury) is nothing compared to a broken head/back/leg or death that is sustained in a major ground fall. The belayers job is to protect the leader. By agreeing to belay they agree to put themselves in some degree of danger themselves. If they don't agree to that they shouldn't be belaying.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25/04/2014
8:55:09 PM
On 25/04/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>I would get my belayer to hang down in the gully, attached to the anchor
>from above, with a quickdraw on the bolt.
>
I have not done the climb in question, so I will defer to your judgement as to the adequacy of the bolt in question.


>There is no I in team. Minor injuries (a dislocated shoulder is a minor
>injury) is nothing compared to a broken head/back/leg or death that is
>sustained in a major ground fall. The belayers job is to protect the leader.
>By agreeing to belay they agree to put themselves in some degree of danger
>themselves. If they don't agree to that they shouldn't be belaying.

Your statement reflects the fact that you probably climb with experienced climbers more often than I do.
These days I often climb with raw-beginners, and so am very mindful of any of my actions impacting on them.
kieranl
25/04/2014
9:31:51 PM
On 25/04/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>On 25/04/2014 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>In your scenario, what do you do to mitigate the fact that the belayer
>>could also end up falling down (pulled off by the falling leader), the
>>same gully?
>
>I would get my belayer to hang down in the gully, attached to the anchor
>from above, with a quickdraw on the bolt.

Neil, this is rubbish in relation to this incident. There is no bolt on the climb. The bolt is on a chain that helps to keep the logs of the retaining wall at the base of a ledge in place. The belay ledge is flat with plenty of natural achors. The climber has to traverse right via a horizontal crack to the vertical line. It is normal to stick a piece in the crack here to prevent exactly what happened here.

>
>>Call me callous if you like, but in my opinion, it is a better outcome
>>if only the leader pays for the mistakes of inadequate protection made
>>by the leader, instead of foisting that outcome onto the belayer as well.
>
>There is no I in team. Minor injuries (a dislocated shoulder is a minor
>injury) is nothing compared to a broken head/back/leg or death that is
>sustained in a major ground fall. The belayers job is to protect the leader.
>By agreeing to belay they agree to put themselves in some degree of danger
>themselves. If they don't agree to that they shouldn't be belaying.

Implied in this contract between belayer and leader is that the leader will will take what reasonable steps are available to avoid injuring the belayer. In this instance I have no idea who was the "senior" partner as they both appear to have had no clue.

Further on auto-stop belay devices, I don't believe that there are any that are guaranteed to work if the belayer lets go with the brake hand. And I can just imagine a belayer's reaction when the leader asks them to use a gri-gri instead of an ATC "just in case I take you out".

nmonteith
25/04/2014
10:24:10 PM
I've said that and been told that on many instances Kieran! Usually on multipitch routes with hard moves right off the belay. I don't want to fall into my belayer and have them let go. Serpentine springs to mind as a route with a nasty fall directly onto your belayer. In this situation I always ask my belayer to use a grigri.












And if they don't have a grigri i get them to tie a backup knot 5m down the rope so if they let go the knot acts as a backup.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26/04/2014
9:26:55 AM
>And if they don't have a grigri i get them to tie a backup knot 5m down the rope so if they let go the knot acts as a backup.

I like your second suggestion better as this allows slippage of the leaders rope to help minimise forces applied to the belay system/leader/belayer.

In the incident we are discussing it would seem that there could have been slack in the belayers tethering sling (provides opportunity for shock loading), and even so; if a 'magical auto-lock' gri gri was used and 'suddenly' locked off after belayer loses control of the fall, then there would have been a lot of force (read shock-load), applied to the belay attachment point, and also the (apparently less than ideal) belay ...

From what I have read, it is this potential adverse shock loading component that kieranl was referring to when he wrote;
>The person who came off worst here was the belayer and an autolock device might actually have made her situation worse.
Wendy
26/04/2014
9:31:52 AM
I can see how the grigri could have increase the injuries to the belayer in this case. Given that the bolt was below her waist and clipped in with a sling, she effectively took a high factor fall onto a bolt with a non dynamic sling instead of a rope. Add another person's weight onto that or the effect of having a shock load on her with the grigri catcing or the effect of a bloody great big pendulum swinging under her, and her injuries could easily be much worse. As it is, she is the more injured party from the accident already.

But as it has already been summarised - put in a proper anchor and place a piece to avoid falling onto your belayer and problem is averted. Sometimes I think the fear of being pulled up by a fall manages to override the much greater risks of being pulled off the belay or fallen directly onto. An upward anchor only is often unnecessary and should really be assessed in the context of the situation.
Having said that, I see people who set up belays at the top of routes and then belay of their harnesses in a position where they are not supported by the anchor and are going to fall or swing should they have to hold a fall as well, so maybe people just aren't thinking through their setups very clearly in general?
kieranl
26/04/2014
10:44:32 AM
On 25/04/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>I've said that and been told that on many instances Kieran! Usually on
>multipitch routes with hard moves right off the belay. I don't want to
>fall into my belayer and have them let go. Serpentine springs to mind as
>a route with a nasty fall directly onto your belayer. In this situation
>I always ask my belayer to use a grigri.
>
Neil, in those cases you've analysed the situation and, presumably explained it to your belayer. The lemmington accident is different in that they clearly didn't recognise the situation they were putting themselves in. In that case it would be "Let's belay with a grigri because we have no idea what we are doing"
kieranl
26/04/2014
10:49:32 AM
The idea of people using the retaining wall bolt as a belay worries me. I'll go up late today and have a closer look at it. It might need a sign, much as I hate them.
Wendy
26/04/2014
11:12:41 AM
I did notice last time I was up there that there is a bolt separate to the retaining wall on the aardvark side. That might be what was used?

Duang Daunk
26/04/2014
1:28:47 PM
On 22/04/2014 colinbrochard wrote:
>Hey guys,
>
>I'm the guy who fell. Shilts pretty much nailed it. My belayer was teathered
>with a double-shoulderlength dyneema sling (shoulda used the rope, but
>I anticipated getting gear in above her) to a glue-in at waist height below
>Lemington.

>I tumbled freely and screamed like a girl
>
>My partner, was pulled off her stance in the directon of the gully.

This info should help clarify what bolt was used.

Signs suck. Disable the bolt instead if it is the one you may be thinking of k.

The leader used some of his 9 lives. It is the belay bunny I feel sorry for.
kieranl
26/04/2014
8:00:28 PM
On 26/04/2014 Wendy wrote:
>I did notice last time I was up there that there is a bolt separate to
>the retaining wall on the aardvark side. That might be what was used?
You're right Wendy. On each side of the gully there's a crappy-looking u-bolt close to but unrelated to the retaining logs. I've never noticed them before but then I've never looked. The glue looks suspiciously like araldite. They're right next to good gear cracks but they're not really where you want to belay anyway.
I'm going out tomorrow so will cart along a few implements of destruction and see above removing them.

Duang Daunk
26/04/2014
8:40:39 PM
On 26/04/2014 kieranl wrote:
>You're right Wendy. On each side of the gully there's a crappy-looking
>u-bolt close to but unrelated to the retaining logs. I've never noticed
>them before but then I've never looked. The glue looks suspiciously like
>araldite. They're right next to good gear cracks but they're not really
>where you want to belay anyway.

Why doesn't this surprise me?
It seems even the Araps isn't free of the contagion.

>I'm going out tomorrow so will cart along a few implements of destruction and see above removing them.

Go for your life k-man.
I will start a fund to raise money for your dangerouser cliffs t-shirt if you want one, though I reckon ODH would donate one to a long standing luminary like yourself if you keep up the good work there, since it is one of his favourite climbing destinations.
kieranl
3/05/2014
8:48:11 PM
OK, single U bolts on both sides of the gully removed.



Here's the one below Lemmington. Hopefully you can see that glue doesn't look like proper masonry adhesive. First cut through the crest of the U.



Then twist each arm out with heavy pliers.



Removed bolt and implements of destruction. I originally thought the glue was araldite but it was quite soft and didn't appear at all well bonded to the rock I think that this bolt was all that was between the two people and a really bad outcome. A decent U and proper glue might require a more heavy-duty wrench to break the glue bond.

I have to go back and plug the holes and put a sign on the logs "Do not anchor to this structure"

(This removal of an unrequired crappy belay bolt with no additional rock damage was brought to u by saferer cliffs.)

shortman
3/05/2014
9:41:11 PM
Good on ya Kieran.

Duang Daunk
3/05/2014
9:42:57 PM
>(This removal of an unrequired crappy belay bolt with no additional rock damage was brought to u by saferer cliffs.)

Yeah?
I'd say you are more eligable for dangerouser cliffs.
Welcome to that fold bro.

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 35
There are 35 messages in this topic.

 

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