Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
FREIGHT FREE
in Australia

DMM: BOA (HMS)Keylock Screwgate 25 10 8 kN Steve's favourite belay screwgate.   $20.00
20% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 43
Author
Tito Traversa Killed in a Fall

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
3:44:13 PM
OK, between pecheur's reply and ajf's, I am now confused, which is not hard I admit...

Wtf kind of stick-clip are we talking about here? ... and is the climber doing this stick-clipping enroute;... eg more than half a rope-length out?

ajfclark
11/07/2013
3:48:15 PM
How to pass a section of a sport route that you can't climb: Clip in hard to bolt A, stick clip bolt B, unclip from bolt A and batman to bolt B, repeat.

It's a sport route though so hopefully you're never more than half a rope length out because then you can't lower off...

That's not what I was suggesting was why Tito had the restriction bands around the bolt end of his draws though; I suspect that was just because he's short and it gives you a few extra inches of reach when you can hold the dogbone and clip the bolt rather than holding the biner itself.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
3:50:04 PM
On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>How to pass a section of a sport route that you can't climb: Clip in hard
>to bolt, stick clip next bolt, batman to new high bolt, repeat.
>
>It's a sport route though so hopefully you're never more than half a rope
>length out because then you can't lower off...

I'll be damned. Spurt climbers are even more into aid than any serious aid climber!
It might interest some readers to know, that clean-aid, in my opinion, tries to minimise the use of a cheat-stick!!!!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
4:00:03 PM
On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>That's what Nick was up to when that dodgy bolt pulled, wasn't it?

Bunny Bucket Buttress yeah?
I thought Nick was resting on the bolt concerned...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
4:13:22 PM
On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>That's not what I was suggesting was why Tito had the restriction bands
>around the bolt end of his draws though; I suspect that was just because
>he's short and it gives you a few extra inches of reach when you can hold
>the dogbone and clip the bolt rather than holding the biner itself.

~> and here was I thinking the lad was climbing the route rather than working it by any means...

If that is the case, then I have just lost a whole lot more respect for sport climbers, as what they profess to do is little more than a gymnastic exercise without the use of ingenuity as applied to hard aid-climbing!

Snappy
11/07/2013
4:14:17 PM
He climbed a warmup route. If he had been on a project that required working/aiding/dogging to get to the top, then the faulty draws would have become apparent straight away.


On 11/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>>That's not what I was suggesting was why Tito had the restriction bands
>>around the bolt end of his draws though; I suspect that was just because
>>he's short and it gives you a few extra inches of reach when you can
>hold
>>the dogbone and clip the bolt rather than holding the biner itself.
>
>~> and here was I thinking the lad was climbing the route rather than
>working it by any means...
>
>If that is the case, then I have just lost a whole lot more respect for
>sport climbers, as what they profess to do is little more than a gymnastic
>exercise!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
4:16:47 PM
On 11/07/2013 Snappy wrote:
>He climbed a warmup route. If he had been on a project that required working/aiding/doggin
> to get to the top, then the faulty draws would have become apparent straight
>away.
>
... but no less dangerous it would seem?
Pecheur
11/07/2013
4:17:23 PM
On 11/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>>That's not what I was suggesting was why Tito had the restriction bands
>>around the bolt end of his draws though; I suspect that was just because
>>he's short and it gives you a few extra inches of reach when you can
>hold
>>the dogbone and clip the bolt rather than holding the biner itself.
>
>~> and here was I thinking the lad was climbing the route rather than
>working it by any means...
>
>If that is the case, then I have just lost a whole lot more respect for
>sport climbers, as what they profess to do is little more than a gymnastic
>exercise!

Actually in this case I'm not sure that's true, I read somewhere that one of his young friends set it the drawers for him and they obviously didn't know what they were doing.

But yes sports climbing is mainly just gymnastic exercise :p

Snappy
11/07/2013
4:18:41 PM
On 11/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/07/2013 Snappy wrote:
>>He climbed a warmup route. If he had been on a project that required
>working/aiding/doggin
>> to get to the top, then the faulty draws would have become apparent
>straight
>>away.
>>
>... but no less dangerous it would seem?

Depends where the crux/aiding was required. If it was the last bolt to get to the anchor, then it would be just as bad. If he was going bolt-to-bolt, then only a single draw would have failed - not 8 in a row.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/07/2013
4:19:49 PM
On 11/07/2013 Pecheur wrote:
>But yes sports climbing is mainly just gymnastic exercise :p

~> Bugga, I really am an old fart with old fashioned values, as I thought the value was in actually climbing to the top onsight ground up fashion, and anything less was a compromise.
;-)

ajfclark
11/07/2013
4:25:13 PM
On 11/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/07/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>>That's what Nick was up to when that dodgy bolt pulled, wasn't it?
>
>Bunny Bucket Buttress yeah?

Not really. Off route on something dodgy.

>I thought Nick was resting on the bolt concerned...

I can't find the original report I read, but here's a summary from http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/02/03/bolt-pulls-australian-climber-dies.htm
The accident happened near the top of the climb. Andrew Pare set up a belay from a single bolt [A] above a ledge and brought Nick Kaz up to him. Nick then headed up the next pitch and climbed to a bolt [B]. The next rock section appeared very difficult and much harder than what they had climbed below, so Nick, using a stick from the ledge below, attempted to clip the next higher bolt [C] with a quickdraw attached to the stick. He rested his weight on the bolt [B] while he tried to clip and it pulled out. As Nick fell, his rope sliced on a sharp edge and he continued falling to the cliff-base. The belay bolt [A] was later removed by Simon Carter “with two gentle tugs on a quickdraw.”
[edit: Found the report I was looking for. ]

Snacks
11/07/2013
7:17:09 PM
On 11/07/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 11/07/2013 Pecheur wrote:
>>But yes sports climbing is mainly just gymnastic exercise :p
>
>~> Bugga, I really am an old fart with old fashioned values, as I thought
>the value was in actually climbing to the top onsight ground up fashion, and anything
>less was a compromise.
>;-)

Old fashioned values really just consist of getting from point A to point B in any way possible.

Ascent satisfaction is in the eye of the beholder. ;)
gfdonc
12/07/2013
12:54:47 PM
A worthwhile editorial that addresses some of the issues raised:

http://eveningsends.com/2013/07/tito-traversa-death/

ajfclark
27/08/2013
8:23:33 AM
Apparently manslaughter charges have been filed: http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/manslaughter-charges-filed-in-death-of-tito-traversa

wombly
27/08/2013
9:40:39 AM
>On 12/07/2013 gfdonc wrote:
>A worthwhile editorial that addresses some of the issues raised:

>http://eveningsends.com/2013/07/tito-traversa-death/

A quote from the editorial: "No one goes out to a sport-climbing crag carrying the acceptance that they may die that day. No one."

This to me is utter bollocks. Sport climbing is notionally safer than other styles, but every single time you tie in and step off the ground you put yourself at risk. It may help with the climbing to put the thought of decking out of your mind, but the risk will always be there - something the number of accidents that happen otherwise sanitised crags will continue to attest to.



Sabu
Online Now
27/08/2013
10:31:42 AM
How can they lay manslaughter charges on the gear manufacturer and retailer? That's bizarre. Surely they can't be held responsible for someone else's stupidity.

Snappy
27/08/2013
10:37:51 AM
Manufacturer I can sort of get (even if I don't agree with it), but the retailer selling perfectly legal gear? The person behind the counter may not even have known what it was...and why should they?
Damo666
27/08/2013
11:01:34 AM
On 27/08/2013 Sabu wrote:
>How can they lay manslaughter charges on the gear manufacturer and retailer?
>

Well, that's why Yvon Chouinard got out of the hardware business and Chouinard became Black Diamond. The law suit never went through but the threat of it was a sign for YC to get out while he could.
kieranl
27/08/2013
11:19:03 AM
On 27/08/2013 Sabu wrote:
>How can they lay manslaughter charges on the gear manufacturer and retailer?
>That's bizarre. Surely they can't be held responsible for someone else's
>stupidity.
Well they can, which is the reason we now have Black Diamond rather than Chouinard equipment.
If the draws were factory assembled then the manufacturer would seem to be liable. The retailer would probably also be liable for selling dangerously defective good. If the draws were bought as parts and assembled, as I have heard, then they also might be liable for selling safety equipment with inadequate instructions.

Sabu
Online Now
27/08/2013
11:33:36 AM
Ok so by extension what stops authorities charging a retailer or manufacturer when a person ties into a rope incorrectly or incorrectly places a cam and hurts themselves? It seems pretty shady territory to me.

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 43
There are 43 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints