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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 7 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
Author
Blue Mountains - male climber injured after fall

pmonks
12/11/2013
11:04:30 AM
On 12/11/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>> It is very very rare for me to ever blow bits of trad gear.
>
>Except tri cams, right? ;-)

And link cams too, right? ;-)

Snacks
12/11/2013
11:44:53 AM
On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I've said it before and I'll say it again. I prefer that my belayer uses
>a self-locking belay device (ie GriGri) for trad, sport, aid - whatever.
>The reason is I like to know that if the belayer looses control (lets go,
>gets hit on the head by a rock, gets distracted, falls asleep) that the
>device has a backup. The off chance that a bit of trad will blow by being
>shocked loaded by a GriGri is negligible sideffect for me. I generally
>climb routes with bomber gear, and double up as much as I can. It is very
>very rare for me to ever blow bits of trad gear.

Yeah, I figure the human error failure rate of a GriGri is no worse than with an ATC and you get the benefit of a belayer backup (as long as you are climbing with reasonably experienced belayers.)

But climbers will keep sticking GriGris in beginners' hands, get lazy with instruction and assume all's sweet.
patto
12/11/2013
12:26:44 PM
On 12/11/2013 Snacks wrote:
>Yeah, I figure the human error failure rate of a GriGri is no worse than
>with an ATC and you get the benefit of a belayer backup (as long as you
>are climbing with reasonably experienced belayers.)

How do you figure that? The "automatic" nature of a GriGri is much more likely to lead to complacency. Given the number of GriGri accidents that I keep hearing about this seems accurate.

If you are worried about human error in your belay with an experienced partner then I'd get a new one. It really isn't that hard to keep a firm grip of a rope for 10-15minutes.

my 2 cents...

Capt_mulch
12/11/2013
12:39:05 PM
Agreed - learn with a figure of 8 and learn to keep you belay hand down. A grigri is great if you know what you are meant to be doing with it - they are also great for top belay / abseil / roped soloing.
Wendy
12/11/2013
2:59:07 PM
I use my cinch pretty much anytime I have a single rope - sport, trad, guiding, top belays, bottom belays, whichever. I can't remember anyone blowing gear whilst I've been belaying them with it and it's definitely great from belaying your second from the anchor, just as you would use a reverso. Which is my other belay piece of choice. I don't know why anyone is buying old style atcs anymore. Sure, there are occasions when it's still better to belay off your harness in a traditional manner, but they aren't that common - the vast majority of the time I can get a high belay in, or one back from the cliff edge enough to belay straight off. No belay piece however is going to replace have a range of skills to adapt to each prospective belay.
kieranl
12/11/2013
3:06:52 PM
On 12/11/2013 Capt_mulch wrote:
>Agreed - learn with a figure of 8 and learn to keep you belay hand down.
I've never understood why people like that device. Even back in the seventies when people thought they were the ants-pants, I loathed them. Twist the rope horribly when abseiling and useless for belaying.

rodw
12/11/2013
3:28:47 PM
They were great for soft catches :)....I used them back in the day had no problem holding falls..I think the reason they were popular because they were dirt cheap.
patto
12/11/2013
3:44:38 PM
Unless I am placing RPs and microcams then I couldn't care less about a soft catch on trad. All I ask for is a reliable catch.
kieranl
12/11/2013
4:18:33 PM
On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:
>Unless I am placing RPs and microcams then I couldn't care less about a
>soft catch on trad. All I ask for is a reliable catch.
You do actually want a soft catch. According to that link from Beal, if you pair the wrong rope with a Gri-gri it's quite easy to get a scenario where the impact force on the top piece is 14 Kn, which exceeds the MBS of most trad gear. Most wires are only rated to 12 Kn, BD stoppers only to 10. The medium to large Camalots to 14Kn.
The only things rated above 14 Kn are slings (22Kn) and some brands of nuts on Dyneema (17Kn).
johnk
12/11/2013
4:26:14 PM
This thread is up to nearly 20,000 views! Has to be getting up there as an all time record for Chockstone thread to close to it.

Apart from the fact that someone was really really hurt which is a real bummer, it's a great thread and a great discussion with good learnings for all of us. i.e. it's not cool to fall when climbing and even worse its not cool and totally unacceptable to not belay correctly/catch someone if they fall no matter what belay device is being used!

I personally like gri-gris for single pitch climbing trad and sport too, my only criticism is that some people don't feed the rope out quick enough if the rope is on the upper end of the thickness (11mm).
patto
12/11/2013
5:05:07 PM
On 12/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:
>>Unless I am placing RPs and microcams then I couldn't care less about
>a
>>soft catch on trad. All I ask for is a reliable catch.
>You do actually want a soft catch. According to that link from Beal, if
>you pair the wrong rope with a Gri-gri it's quite easy to get a scenario
>where the impact force on the top piece is 14 Kn, which exceeds the MBS
>of most trad gear. Most wires are only rated to 12 Kn, BD stoppers only
>to 10. The medium to large Camalots to 14Kn.
>The only things rated above 14 Kn are slings (22Kn) and some brands of
>nuts on Dyneema (17Kn).

Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and body failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN on your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls. I'm sure many others here have too.

That said I don't own or use a GriGri nor do most of my partners.

shortman
12/11/2013
5:46:47 PM
On 12/11/2013 johnk wrote:
>This thread is up to nearly 20,000 views! Has to be getting up there as
>an all time record for Chockstone thread to close to it.

Na, I think the official stoked thread has had 1.9 million views, so a bit to go yet.

kieranl
12/11/2013
8:31:22 PM
On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:
>Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated
>values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and body
>failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN on
>your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls.

Am I missing something : if the runner is getting a 14kN hit I would expect the climber to be getting 7kN, equal and opposite forces and all that.
I accept that the Beal figures are worst-case scenarios but still worth taking note of. A good way to avoid encountering a worst-case scenario is to try to not meet all the pre-conditions.
pecheur
12/11/2013
10:30:35 PM
On 12/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 12/11/2013 patto wrote:
>>Those cases Beal presents are worst case scenarios. Those are calculated
>>values not real world values. In practice we'd see far more gear and
>body
>>failure if that was the case! At 14kN, you would be receiving 8.75kN
>on
>>your pelvis! In practice I've seen 2kN and 3kN rated pieces take falls.
>
>Am I missing something : if the runner is getting a 14kN hit I would expect
>the climber to be getting 7kN, equal and opposite forces and all that.
>I accept that the Beal figures are worst-case scenarios but still worth
>taking note of. A good way to avoid encountering a worst-case scenario
>is to try to not meet all the pre-conditions.

You're missing the effect of friction Kieran, the climber gets the rough end of it. I'm not sure exactly what patto was using for the coefficient of friction of loaded rope through a carabiner, but the values I've seen published range from 30-40%
Fish Boy
13/11/2013
5:05:47 PM
3kn on the climber is 5kn on the last biner which is 2kn on the belayer. That's in a one biner system which is not representative of what happens when you're 100 feet above a belayer, having placed half a dozen pieces on a.wondering route. In reality the belayer doesn't reall matter, as long as the rope goes tight.

Fun fact....the munter has about as much slip as a gri gri, which is a lot less than an atc.
kieranl
13/11/2013
10:08:55 PM
On 12/11/2013 pecheur wrote:
>You're missing the effect of friction Kieran, the climber gets the rough
>end of it. I'm not sure exactly what patto was using for the coefficient
>of friction of loaded rope through a carabiner, but the values I've seen
>published range from 30-40%
Thanks, that make sense. In any case it seems the lesson is to go for a rope with a low maximum impact force regardless of the belay device used or style of climbing.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/11/2013
10:16:30 PM
On 13/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>In any case it seems the lesson is to go for a rope with a low maximum impact force regardless of the belay device used or style of climbing.

... unless the rope stretch involved lands you on a ledge/the ground, in a hard way.
kieranl
13/11/2013
10:32:53 PM
I prefer to not fall off if the runner is below my waist.

 Page 7 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
There are 138 messages in this topic.

 

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