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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 6 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
Author
Blue Mountains - male climber injured after fall

ambyeok
11/11/2013
2:51:20 PM
Why do people want to know what happened at the belay? Do you think knowing what happened will mean you can prevent it happening to you? More likely than not its something we already know about and if no then chances are its not something you can guard against. Maybe a 1% chance it is some hithertoo unknown manufacturing error affecting all ATC's since 1970, or leads to some brand new belaying technique that gaurantees safey whilst slimming the waist and toning the buttocks. Knowing is far more likely to serve the purpose of satisfying curiosity than it is to increasing safety.

I've got $50 bucks who am I gonna donate it to? White Ribbon or dude who hurt himself climbing?
widewetandslippery
11/11/2013
2:56:01 PM
In all honesty I think it would just be rather nice if Daniel sent "The Lady" her gear and a simple thank you card.
Fish Boy
11/11/2013
3:04:34 PM
Shortman, there is absolutely no problem with using a grigri trad climbing. None. I've used it exclusively for years now unless I'm using doubles. I rap, haul, rope solo and belay with it.

People like to say it creates too much force on the gear, but it is the device of choice for aid climbers, and that's a place for trouble if what you're saying has any validity.

shortman
11/11/2013
3:13:19 PM
On 11/11/2013 Fish Boy wrote:
>Shortman, there is absolutely no problem with using a grigri trad climbing.
>None. I've used it exclusively for years now unless I'm using doubles.
>I rap, haul, rope solo and belay with it.
>

Good to know.

>People like to say it creates too much force on the gear, but it is the
>device of choice for aid climbers,

Too much force on the gear?? Dunno about that. Wouldn't it be like all belay devices and depend on the user?

>and that's a place for trouble if what
>you're saying has any validity.

Huh?

shortman
11/11/2013
3:19:04 PM
On 11/11/2013 widewetandslippery wrote:
>In all honesty I think it would just be rather nice if Daniel sent "The
>Lady" her gear and a simple thank you card.

Totally agree. However, when I look into my little crystal ball, I see a dude who has been f*cked up for the last 6 months still sitting on a hospital bed trying to save his foot first, gear second, and communicate on the internet third.

Maybe I've got it all the wrong way round??

ajfclark
11/11/2013
3:28:22 PM
On 11/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>Too much force on the gear?? Dunno about that. Wouldn't it be like all belay devices and depend on the user?

Yes and no. Mike has the numbers somewhere, but a tube style device will slip at a lower force than a gri-gri will.

>>and that's a place for trouble if what you're saying has any validity.
>
>Huh?

Nick is saying that If a gri-gri causes more force on the gear, surely in aid climbing that would be a bad thing.
PDRM
11/11/2013
3:34:49 PM
On 11/11/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>Nick is saying that If a gri-gri causes more force on the gear, surely
>in aid climbing that would be a bad thing.

Yeah but it's a pragmatic, attention there in that context. You can be belaying one pitch for very long periods of time.

P

rodw
11/11/2013
3:36:55 PM
On 11/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>Totally agree. However, when I look into my little crystal ball, I see
>a dude who has been f*cked up for the last 6 months still sitting on a
>hospital bed trying to save his foot first, gear second, and communicate
>on the internet third.

Pretty sure he still ain't in a hospital bed if hes got time to post shit on here and Youtube, pretty sure he should have time to contact Ness to return gear..or actually be home when he said he would when the cops come around to pick the gear up on Ness's behalf.

shortman
11/11/2013
3:41:36 PM
On 11/11/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>Nick is saying that If a gri-gri causes more force on the gear, surely
>in aid climbing that would be a bad thing.

Fair enough. I still find it strange when people whip out the gri gri though.
patto
11/11/2013
3:41:37 PM
On 11/11/2013 PDRM wrote:
>On 11/11/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>>Nick is saying that If a gri-gri causes more force on the gear, surely
>>in aid climbing that would be a bad thing.
>
>Yeah but it's a pragmatic, attention there in that context. You can be
>belaying one pitch for very long periods of time.
>
>P

Plus you can't respond to you emails as easily.

I've aid climbed for only two pitches. The first time was aid practice and my partner managed do get a dozen emails done in the pitch. The second time was the roof of Passport and I don't think he had good reception. ;-)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
11/11/2013
5:28:54 PM
On 11/11/2013 patto wrote:
>On 11/11/2013 PDRM wrote:
>>On 11/11/2013 ajfclark wrote:
>>>Nick is saying that If a gri-gri causes more force on the gear, surely
>>>in aid climbing that would be a bad thing.
>>
>>Yeah but it's a pragmatic, attention there in that context. You can be
>>belaying one pitch for very long periods of time.
>>
>>P
Not just pragmatism (in a long attention span context), but physics of higher impact forces (as ajf reference of slippage threshold), on marginal (read bodyweight only), gear.

I agree with fishboy re gri gris, but I have never bothered to buy one for my own use!

~> Back to topic.
I think Wendy made a good insightful guess regarding the possibility of the climber maybe starting before the belayer might have been ready. Easily done in a bad communication environment, and could easily account for a large fall becoming larger still, due not being able to be controlled in a timely manner.

As a side note, in many other disciplines there are penalties enshrined in law for negligence and incompetence, ... ~> I wonder how authorities view this accident, and subsequent seeming disappearance of the belayer involved? ~> ~> It is this aspect alone which tends to shake my faith in humanity, rather than the plight of the injured party.

>Plus you can't respond to you emails as easily.
>
>I've aid climbed for only two pitches. The first time was aid practice
>and my partner managed do get a dozen emails done in the pitch. The second
>time was the roof of Passport and I don't think he had good reception.
>;-)
Probably a bait that I am about to swallow, and call me old fashioned, but I reckon there is a time and place for that, and it isn't while belaying; ... as that is like trying to text and drive at the same time.
Yes it can be achieved, but potentially at what cost??
patto
11/11/2013
6:00:58 PM
On 11/11/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Probably a bait that I am about to swallow, and call me old fashioned,
>but I reckon there is a time and place for that, and it isn't while belaying;
>... as that is like trying to text and drive at the same time.
>Yes it can be achieved, but potentially at what cost??
>

It wasn't bait. It did occur. But no, it is not best practice! As long as you secure the brake end then a gri-gri will happily lock up.

JMK
11/11/2013
11:27:18 PM
Gri Gris lock up generating a higher force on the gear. With practice if the belayer gives a soft catch belay by hopping up lightly at the right moment the impact force can be greatly reduced. Now falls can happen any time but an attentive belayer will watch particularly when pre warned about marginal gear. In saying that I still don't belay trad with a gri gri because that is another thing to get right and with high consequences for failure - not something u want to get wrong. I use gri Gris for sport and working routes and occasional aid as the risk of letting the rope go by accident on a 5 hr belay is quite high.
mikllaw
12/11/2013
6:26:09 AM
On 11/11/2013 JMK wrote:
>Gri Gris lock up generating a higher force on the gear. With practice if
>the belayer gives a soft catch belay by hopping up lightly at the right
>moment the impact force can be greatly reduced.

Exactly! But only for small falls.
The extra amount of 'cushioning' you can generate is the small distance you step up, handy for a small fall and inconsequential for a large fall
patto
12/11/2013
9:17:52 AM
On 12/11/2013 mikllaw wrote:
>
>Exactly! But only for small falls.
>The extra amount of 'cushioning' you can generate is the small distance
>you step up, handy for a small fall and inconsequential for a large fall

From the tests I've seen it can be a fair bit even for larger falls. Much more that the "extra" amount of cushioning from a step up. It surprised me a bit...

Unfortunately my google fu couldn't find these tests...
EDIT: Here is a little data, but not what I was looking for. I recall reading this in a European research paper.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2574668;search_string=lead%20fall%20analysis;#2574668
mikllaw
12/11/2013
9:37:08 AM
One of the blind spots most climbers have is belaying, what works for sport (small falls, steep rock, bomber gear. The main issue is avouiding being slammed into the wall) doesn't work for trad (potential long falls and poor gear. The issue is a balance between avoiding the ground and overloading gear). And vice versa (so getting a traddy to belay you on a sport route is as bad as getting Glen boy to hold your rope on something scary. And lets not start on double ropes)

Also, on multipitch you are tied into a belay and grigris will generate large forces
tris
12/11/2013
10:39:01 AM
This article from Beal might help some gain an understanding of the differences between belay devices (and ropes) when looking at fall factors:

http://www.beal-pro.com/anglais/facteurchute.php

nmonteith
12/11/2013
10:47:13 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I prefer that my belayer uses a self-locking belay device (ie GriGri) for trad, sport, aid - whatever. The reason is I like to know that if the belayer looses control (lets go, gets hit on the head by a rock, gets distracted, falls asleep) that the device has a backup. The off chance that a bit of trad will blow by being shocked loaded by a GriGri is negligible sideffect for me. I generally climb routes with bomber gear, and double up as much as I can. It is very very rare for me to ever blow bits of trad gear.

pmonks
12/11/2013
10:58:02 AM
On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
>I've said it before and I'll say it again. I prefer that my belayer uses
>a self-locking belay device (ie GriGri) for trad, sport, aid - whatever.

Related anecdote: just got back to U, S and A from a work trip to Barcelona, where I managed to drag myself up this beast (mini TR when I get a chance), and the guy I was with (a member of the Montserrat cliff rescue team) insisted that I use a reverso, rather than the ATC I'd brought with me.

His argument was similar to yours Neil, and made sense to me given that we were complete strangers (he's a friend of a friend). That said, and with my limited use of the thing, I'm not sure I'd trust a reverso to completely auto-lock in the event of comprehensive belayer failure, but it seemed like it'd perform better in that case than a vanilla ATC...

ajfclark
12/11/2013
11:03:09 AM
On 12/11/2013 nmonteith wrote:
> It is very very rare for me to ever blow bits of trad gear.

Except tri cams, right? ;-)

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There are 138 messages in this topic.

 

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