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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 5 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
Author
Blue Mountains - male climber injured after fall
Sticky Ricky
9/11/2013
4:35:48 AM
On 9/11/2013 Stugang wrote:

>Whether my recollection is wrong or not I've done the same thing many
>times (naughty I know), but always in the right situations. Also I reckon
>i would of done a better job of catching dan with a waist belay and no
>gear than the muppet belaying him that dropped him.

I understand that this forum is about armchair climbers talking with each other which I am now one of. But people how can we start judging Sean and what he has done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm sure if this fella had his time again belaying he would do things differently.

>if you are a muppet you are likely to hurt someone regardless of the gear
>you own, and if you climb with a muppet you are likely to get hurt.

There is a little bit of muppet in everyone. We all make mistakes and a lot of the time we get away with it. I have done plenty of silly things and most of the time I got away with it. However there have been times I haven't. I once abseiled off the end of my rope......and dropped a leader 10 m after loosing control of my device. I saw myself as a competent climber but I made a silly mistake. I was slagged by my then friend who I dropped and by others for making a mistake, most of whom were not there. I am still traumatised by the incident.

Not knowing the full story we should all respect Sean and his actions. Bullying him into making a statement won't work. As a community we should try and learn from this incident and maybe we will learn the full story at some time. Until then don't judge.

Ricky
mbrooks
9/11/2013
4:37:13 AM
Spot on Stugang. Dan hope you heal up soon.

MB

Capt_mulch
9/11/2013
8:04:54 AM
Good discussion all. I agree that it would be nice to know the circumstances - even why the belayer left the scene - no judgement, just learn from what happened. (OK, we can all slag him off after we find out what happened, but wait until then).

"You don't have to worry about falling, you're the second" - Fantini. Maybe sometimes you do!

As far as EPIRBs / remote communication devices go, check out the Delorme inReach SE - been testing them at work - tracking / 2-way texting / SOS - US$300 for the unit and basic service US$10 month. Well worth it and works everywhere.

White Trash
9/11/2013
8:57:07 PM
On 9/11/2013 Sticky Ricky wrote:
>On 9/11/2013 Stugang wrote:
>
>>Whether my recollection is wrong or not I've done the same thing many
>>times (naughty I know), but always in the right situations. Also I reckon
>>i would of done a better job of catching dan with a waist belay and no
>>gear than the muppet belaying him that dropped him.
>
>I understand that this forum is about armchair climbers talking with each
>other which I am now one of. But people how can we start judging Sean and
>what he has done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm sure if this fella
>had his time again belaying he would do things differently.
>
so your lining up to let sean kop belay you first then?

>>if you are a muppet you are likely to hurt someone regardless of the
>gear
>>you own, and if you climb with a muppet you are likely to get hurt.
>
>There is a little bit of muppet in everyone. We all make mistakes and
>a lot of the time we get away with it. I have done plenty of silly things
>and most of the time I got away with it. However there have been times
>I haven't. I once abseiled off the end of my rope......and dropped a leader
>10 m after loosing control of my device. I saw myself as a competent climber
>but I made a silly mistake. I was slagged by my then friend who I dropped
>and by others for making a mistake, most of whom were not there. I am still
>traumatised by the incident.
>
>Not knowing the full story we should all respect Sean and his actions.

yeh?
no thanks, i don't want him belaying me.

>Bullying him into making a statement won't work. As a community we should
>try and learn from this incident and maybe we will learn the full story
>at some time. Until then don't judge.
>
>Ricky
this thread is trying to learn from the incident isnt it?
your cal of not judging for yourself ricky, but not for me thanks.
PThomson
9/11/2013
9:16:51 PM
On 8/11/2013 martym wrote:
>On 8/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>>I'm with Shortman on this. The guy was dropped and badly hurt. If there's
>>any explaining to be done it's from the guy on the other end.
>I don't think anyone's disputing that.
>

Sean Kop

- if you're out there, we want answers!
>

I actually think that the original poster is the one who owes us the answers, and Sean Kop is second on that list.

Clearly something went wrong, but what specifically? Why hasn't the original poster clarified anything beyond the fact that Sean Kop is to blame. Furthermore, information on the video, the donation link, the "report" and what was said here don't quite align.

You can't introduce doubt by making a statement without justifying it, and still retain your credibility. If I said that an individual on these forums never did up the screwgates on any of his carabiners, but never elaborated beyond that statement, I've introduced doubt, but walked away before justifying my statement. In turn, that introduces doubt to my credibility..

I honestly hope that Daniel recovers quickly, is back climbing soon, and can do so without too much mistrust in the abilities of his fellow climbers, but I also think that more needs to be known before we can start a lynch mob for one Sean Kop.

-Paul
marky
9/11/2013
9:38:18 PM
Does anyone even know this Sean Kop dude???
martym
9/11/2013
9:50:19 PM
On 9/11/2013 PThomson wrote:
>I actually think that the original poster is the one who owes us the answers,
>and Sean Kop is second on that list.

OP was FatCanyoner - that was my point; if Daniel had started a separate topic asking for help, that would change things a little bit. But in this case - the discussion is about how an accident happened, what could have prevented it, how can climbers learn from these mistakes.

>Clearly something went wrong, but what specifically? Why hasn't the original
>poster clarified anything beyond the fact that Sean Kop is to blame. Furthermore,
>information on the video, the donation link, the "report" and what was
>said here don't quite align.
Again, Daniel contributed 6 months after the accident. He doesn't seem to be a regular on Chockstone, he probably doesn't even know the whirling discussion here.
I haven't blamed Sean Kop - I've asked him to contribute; perhaps he has a totally different view to Daniel - but as I said before, we'll probably never know.

>I honestly hope that Daniel recovers quickly, is back climbing soon, and
>can do so without too much mistrust in the abilities of his fellow climbers,
>
>-Paul

From what it seems like, Daniel will be lucky to be walking on two legs. If he starts climbing that would take immense strength of character & overcoming post-traumatic-stress which would likely occur if he found himself on the wall. Perhaps not - I don't know the guy, but I wish him al the best.

>but I also think that more needs to be known before we can start a lynch
>mob for one Sean Kop.

An internet Lynch Mob's bark is far worse than it's bite.
Chances are one of the people here will bump into a guy with a funny surname in a bar, days later remember "Kop, I knew I'd heard that surname before... that was the guy... seemed nice enough to me. Oh well, hope he's stopped belaying...."
PThomson
10/11/2013
9:29:16 AM
On 9/11/2013 martym wrote:

>OP was FatCanyoner - that was my point; if Daniel had started a separate
>topic asking for help, that would change things a little bit. But in this
>case - the discussion is about how an accident happened, what could have
>prevented it, how can climbers learn from these mistakes.

Yeah, I actually meant Daniel, as opposed to FatCanyoner.

IMO, FatCanyoner -when this thread was started- was presenting what information was available. Daniel was the one who made some pretty specific statements which beg further questions (hence, my previous point about credability).

-Paul

vwills
10/11/2013
2:10:56 PM
Well he should have checked back because he asked me to PM him about returning our gear, which I did when he posted. Still no reply, as there hasnt been when I have sent a message via fb, or the Katoomba police made the trip to collect it for us 2 months ago.

I dont expect a thankyou card- and I have been waiting patiently for gear without hassling - but I would think he could return our gear. A few quickdraws, long slings and locking biners aren't a massive amount of gear, but as we took the trouble to assist him and the paramedics, cut a path to the winch site, set up safety lines, help carry him to the winch site and then coil his gear, carry it out in the dark, (after all other personnel winched out) and return it, I would hope he could be kind enough to send our gear back to us.

E. Wells
10/11/2013
8:33:43 PM
I actually would expect a thankyou card, a cheap one..
Mr Poopypants
10/11/2013
11:27:04 PM
Well, that sucks VW! I hope you don't give up on lending your considerable skills to other climbers who come to grief. Most of us would shower you in beer for your troubles. Having woken up with my leg wrapped around my head I appreciate passers by who happen to stop to save a life or two.
Shows a lot more about you than him.
Wendy
11/11/2013
8:36:25 AM
If you look at his account, he hasn't logged in again since 2 minutes after his begging for money/bagging his belayer post. I still find this whole thread rather disturbing. From his second video, he seems to have already had the surgery that he's begging for which seems like it should have been covered under public health and now is talking about money to support himself. Well, that is what Centrelink is for, not to mention having one's own personal resources. I find it difficult that we can indulge in a fairly costly, self indulgent, risky passtime like climbing in a country with some of the better health and welfare coverage in the world, and then if it all goes wrong, think it's appropriate to start begging for money. We are talking about someone who appears to be able to afford to start his own business and pay for income protection. And if his income protection policy won't cover it for some reason, perhaps he should have read the fine print when he took it out? Or perhaps there's some other reason they won't pay out? Did anyone else on here who's had to have thousands of dollars of surgery on shoulders, knees, ankles, backs etc etc, leading to lots of time unable to work and many of them with permanent changes in physical ability start begging? Call me harsh, but maybe you could be a Bangladeshi with polio or an Ethopian hit by a car. Then you might have some real lack of other options. And if you can get it together to run an internet begging campaign, you should also be able to get it together to post some gear back to the person who helped you. I'm really quite interested in the explaination of all of this, and I certainly think if you are asking people for help, you should be a little clearer with them than he has been.

Most people here also seem ready to slag off some unknown belayer based on a few lines of onesided information from someone who's being decidedly weird. Yes, it is awful to have a major climbing accident, be seriously injured, to be dropped by a belayer. But we really have very little idea of what went on and even only this guy's story that what happened was that he was dropped. He could have started climbing before being on belay for example. But what I am mostly thinking is that I see people doing stupid shit that could lead to horrific accidents all the time. People are slack belayers, have poor technique, place crap gear, build dodgy belays, make bad judgements a lot. People also make stupid mistakes or stop paying attention occasionally. Any one of these people/events could lead to someone getting badly hurt. It's not just 1 person being stupid/incompetant. It's a quite a lot of people and just luck and circumstances that they get away with it and if that's what happened here, it was one of the times that someone didn't get away with it. It's really a lesson to review your own practices, those of people you climb with, and keep an eye out for other people who may need some tactful (or not so tactful) direction. Think of all the stories of people failing to tie knots properly, ripping gear, hitting the ground, getting way out of their depth on routes, needing rescue for easily avoidable situations. What they suggest is that we are far closer to having more bad accidents in climbing than we like to think we are.
jimfalla
11/11/2013
9:20:11 AM
On 11/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>Call me harsh......


No.

But you'll make a good nurse.

shortman
11/11/2013
9:42:50 AM
On 11/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>If you look at his account, he hasn't logged in again since 2 minutes after
>his begging for money/bagging his belayer post. I still find this whole
>thread rather disturbing. From his second video, he seems to have already
>had the surgery that he's begging for which seems like it should have been
>covered under public health and now is talking about money to support himself.
>Well, that is what Centrelink is for, not to mention having one's own personal
>resources. I find it difficult that we can indulge in a fairly costly,
>self indulgent, risky passtime like climbing in a country with some of
>the better health and welfare coverage in the world, and then if it all
>goes wrong, think it's appropriate to start begging for money. We are talking
>about someone who appears to be able to afford to start his own business
>and pay for income protection. And if his income protection policy won't
>cover it for some reason, perhaps he should have read the fine print when
>he took it out? Or perhaps there's some other reason they won't pay out?
>Did anyone else on here who's had to have thousands of dollars of surgery
>on shoulders, knees, ankles, backs etc etc, leading to lots of time unable
>to work and many of them with permanent changes in physical ability start
>begging? Call me harsh, but maybe you could be a Bangladeshi with polio
>or an Ethopian hit by a car. Then you might have some real lack of other
>options. And if you can get it together to run an internet begging campaign,
>you should also be able to get it together to post some gear back to the
>person who helped you. I'm really quite interested in the explaination
>of all of this, and I certainly think if you are asking people for help,
>you should be a little clearer with them than he has been.
>
>Most people here also seem ready to slag off some unknown belayer based
>on a few lines of onesided information from someone who's being decidedly
>weird. Yes, it is awful to have a major climbing accident, be seriously
>injured, to be dropped by a belayer. But we really have very little idea
>of what went on and even only this guy's story that what happened was that
>he was dropped. He could have started climbing before being on belay for
>example. But what I am mostly thinking is that I see people doing stupid
>shit that could lead to horrific accidents all the time. People are slack
>belayers, have poor technique, place crap gear, build dodgy belays, make
>bad judgements a lot. People also make stupid mistakes or stop paying attention
>occasionally. Any one of these people/events could lead to someone getting
>badly hurt. It's not just 1 person being stupid/incompetant. It's a quite
>a lot of people and just luck and circumstances that they get away with
>it and if that's what happened here, it was one of the times that someone
>didn't get away with it. It's really a lesson to review your own practices,
>those of people you climb with, and keep an eye out for other people who
>may need some tactful (or not so tactful) direction. Think of all the stories
>of people failing to tie knots properly, ripping gear, hitting the ground,
>getting way out of their depth on routes, needing rescue for easily avoidable
>situations. What they suggest is that we are far closer to having more
>bad accidents in climbing than we like to think we are.

Harsh as Wendy.

shortman
11/11/2013
9:48:43 AM
On 22/10/2013 Dont_trust_anyone wrote:
>The accident was cause of incompetence I was seconding the final pitch
>feeling more secure than usual as I normally lead but this time I was on
>a top rope. I put my trust in the wrong person and I am suffering the consequences.
>It's 6 months from the date of the accident and we are spending the next
>12 weeks trying to save my left foot which was basically torn off in the
>fall. The guys name is sean kop and I would not recommend climbing with
>this man.
>
>Please see link below it has the video of the fall I have cut out the
> view of my ankle as best I could as its not nice to look at.
>
>http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/money-for-surgery--2/x/4696196#&ui-state=dialog
>
>P.s to the lady who stayed and helped me on the day I have some of your
>gear if you would like it back pm me

How do you call this a begging/bagging belayer post??

sbm
11/11/2013
10:07:19 AM
>Think of all the stories of people failing to tie knots properly, ripping gear, hitting the ground, getting way out of their depth on routes, needing rescue for easily avoidable situations. What they suggest is that we are far closer to having more bad accidents in climbing than we like to think we are.

It's the classic oh&s accident triangle. At the base, there's heaps of small oversights and lazy corner cutting all the time. Maybe 25% lead to a dangerous situation. 25% of the dangerous situations result in near misses. And 25% of the near misses turn into accidents, the tip of the triangle.

I made up the numbers but you get the idea.
Wendy
11/11/2013
10:18:40 AM
On 11/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>On 22/10/2013 Dont_trust_anyone wrote:
>>The accident was cause of incompetence I was seconding the final pitch
>>feeling more secure than usual as I normally lead but this time I was
>on
>>a top rope. I put my trust in the wrong person and I am suffering the
>consequences.
>>It's 6 months from the date of the accident and we are spending the next
>>12 weeks trying to save my left foot which was basically torn off in
>the
>>fall. The guys name is sean kop and I would not recommend climbing with
>>this man.
>>
>>Please see link below it has the video of the fall I have cut out the
>> view of my ankle as best I could as its not nice to look at.
>>
>>http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/money-for-surgery--2/x/4696196#&ui-state=dialog
>>
>>P.s to the lady who stayed and helped me on the day I have some of your
>>gear if you would like it back pm me
>
>How do you call this a begging/bagging belayer post??

Because he's happy to name and villify the belayer without offering any further information about what went on, has failed to follow up on his offer to get the gear back (see Vanessa's post as well as that he hasn't checked back here since posting) and seems to be posting only to promote his request for $ and badmouth his belayer. The belayer may have made a genuine mistake and feel terrible about it. He may not be in touch with Dan because he can't get hold of him or feels awful about it or has already had a bad interaction with Dan about it, he may well even have walked off and topped himself for all we know. I normally have a generous amount of sympathy for people, but there's something about this whole story that I am very uncomfortable with. Of course he has a right to fair and quality health care treatment and I would expect that he has been given and continues to be given all essential treatment under the public system. My problem is that he is publicly badmouthing someone without backing it up and asking for money with inconsistant and minimal information about what for and why.

Sabu
11/11/2013
10:19:49 AM
On 11/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>Most people here also seem ready to slag off some unknown belayer based
>on a few lines of onesided information from someone who's being decidedly
>weird. Yes, it is awful to have a major climbing accident, be seriously
>injured, to be dropped by a belayer. But we really have very little idea
>of what went on and even only this guy's story that what happened was that
>he was dropped. He could have started climbing before being on belay for
>example. But what I am mostly thinking is that I see people doing stupid
>shit that could lead to horrific accidents all the time. People are slack
>belayers, have poor technique, place crap gear, build dodgy belays, make
>bad judgements a lot. People also make stupid mistakes or stop paying attention
>occasionally. Any one of these people/events could lead to someone getting
>badly hurt. It's not just 1 person being stupid/incompetant. It's a quite
>a lot of people and just luck and circumstances that they get away with
>it and if that's what happened here, it was one of the times that someone
>didn't get away with it. It's really a lesson to review your own practices,
>those of people you climb with, and keep an eye out for other people who
>may need some tactful (or not so tactful) direction. Think of all the stories
>of people failing to tie knots properly, ripping gear, hitting the ground,
>getting way out of their depth on routes, needing rescue for easily avoidable
>situations. What they suggest is that we are far closer to having more
>bad accidents in climbing than we like to think we are.

I agree entirely and to add to that, its not just stupidity or incompetency but also complacency that we have to watch out for. Last weekend at Araps I was struck by how easy it was to become complacent on low grade climbs when setting anchors, placing gear, belaying etc. In an effort to be efficient I realised I was starting to cut corners and had to actively shift my mentality to ensure I wasn't compromising safety. This was most evident on low grade, familiar climbs that I'd been on several times and was trying to climb quickly. It one sense its a lot easier to climb harder routes safely because falling is a distinct possibility and something that is at the forefront of one's mind but it is very easy to forget the seriousness of an unexpected fall on an easy route that you may not be prepared for and a little carelessness could dramatically influence to outcome of such an event.

In regard to this whole situation: I feel for the injured climber but agree that a few things aren't stacking up. Its a pity he hasn't yet taken the time to thank Vwills or make an effort to return her gear. I hope that changes once his medical issues are no longer an immediate concern. We should perhaps also avoid being to harsh in passing judgement as such a traumatic event can really shake up a person's mentality and priorities in life (as I'm sure others who have had accidents can attest to).

shortman
11/11/2013
10:25:04 AM
About the only use you would ever find for a Gri Gri -



Always trips me out when people use them trad climbing....

Sonic
11/11/2013
10:50:53 AM
On 11/11/2013 Wendy wrote:
>If you look at his account, he hasn't logged in again since 2 minutes after
>his begging for money/bagging his belayer post. I still find this whole
>thread rather disturbing etc

I agree as well, Wendy. This does seem a little odd and doesn't quite sit right with me.

I feel for the guy but this is alike to the Greenpeace people bugging me at the bottom of Crown St Mall when I'm passing by on my way to get lunch. I care, but I don't take kindly to the method they're using to get my attention and it turns me off. This effort gets the same reaction.

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