Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Climbing Videos

Post links and comments about your favourite climbing flicks

Author

Grit Ground Up

Hagges

29-Apr-2012
11:29:57 AM

On 29/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 29/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>>Most highballers stack pads till it's like being indoors. Grit ethics
>>allow minimal use of pads.
>I recall a shot of someone on New Statesman with a sleeping bag (unpacked)
>draped over the edge of a boulder as their "protection". I suppose it would
>keep them warm while rescue came.

Ha!! Brilliant. You seen Hard Grit? Where Seb Grieve is using thermarests under Parthian Shot and Meshuga

Dave J

29-Apr-2012
11:32:25 AM

On 28/04/2012 dalai wrote:
>Given the tenuous nature of many grit routes and the often poor protection,
>having not played on TR first and gaining confidence you can do the moves
>is a big deal! The difference between beta or engram aquisition by attempting
>first under the less mentally challenging is huge!
>Arguing whether the crux is V8 or V10 is pretty lame. Yes a V8 crux is
>purely the difficulty of the moves, but a V8 crux way off the deck is a
>far more challenging proposition than one where your butt is a few inches
>from a pad...
Yes. To be honest there wouldn't be anything on those routes that you wouldn't find on a V3. But a very tenuous V3. The sort of thing you'll do one time and it wont be even vaguely strenuous, and the next time your foot will slip and you'll be off. And that sort of thing weighs on your mind if you stand to break all your legs. And even if someones told you where to stand, knowing how much of your weight you can put on a smear before it blows is much easier to work out on a top-rope than lead.
These routes would probably all get about 26 in australia, but then they would have had a few bolts stuck in them and be very different things. As weird as the UK grading system is, it comes way closer to doing justice to these routes than talking about V-grades.

Hagges

29-Apr-2012
11:42:29 AM

Dave. For the Braille Trail how did you attach a sponged out nail to a carabiner? Do you still have it?

Dave J

29-Apr-2012
12:02:01 PM

On 29/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>Dave. For the Braille Trail how did you attach a sponged out nail to a
>carabiner? Do you still have it?

I think it was just a bit of 6mm cord or something tied off around the head. I can't really remember an I left it in England just in case anyone else wanted to use it. I had my Masters Edge tricam for a few years but never found another use for it.

I don't know about the "Braille Trail is essentially 28/29 with a V8 crux" though. I would say it is essentially slabby 26 and, if you were going to compare it to a boulder problem, its like one of those 6as at fontainbleau (those ones that you slip off a hundred times and then some old man comes along and pads up it in his hobnail boots). Doing that sort of thing ground up though is leagues away from head-pointing it after rehearsing it on a toprope (like I did). Does anyone know if Braille Trail has had many ground up ascents? I think Jorgenson and Honnold did some of the routes ground up, like the first ground up ascent of Parthian Shot and maybe the first ground up of Gaia???. The harder ones (for them) though they top-roped first.

Hagges

29-Apr-2012
12:27:29 PM

Just when I thought I understood the British grades...

Ryan Pasquill flashed Gaia in 2009
Neil Kershaw may have done the first ground up of Braille Trail in 2010
Kevin Jorgeson did the first ground up of Parthian Shot
Alex Honnold flashed Masters Edge

I just got this from searching the UKC site. They'll have more info on there.

I know Pete Whittaker wants to onsight masters edge and he leaves the room as soon as he sees any footage of anybody on it.

The Cosseys ripped up the Grit pretty well as did Lucky Chance. I think there was a headtorch ascent of Gaia or Parthian Shot?


davidn

29-Apr-2012
1:41:43 PM

Thanks Dave J - was hoping you'd chime in! You did Braille Trail on a nail + 1 other piece of pro didn't you? All of the 'routes' certainly look tenuous, very hard to flash and easy to spooge off. (Pete Whittaker - look away) How hard was Master's Edge up top? It looks like it doesn't ease up much!

BTW: Kieran, you won the thread. You get to pick the soundtrack.


davidn

29-Apr-2012
2:22:34 PM

On 29/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>Just when I thought I understood the British grades...

Maybe the British technical grades are fine, just because of the massive name associated with these, no one ever said 'oi wait a sec, maybe 6b not 6c'? Which would fit perfectly with a 7b+ French rating / 26 Aussie. That said, grades make no sense when they intersect with slabs.

It's similar to how only recently has Hubble been on the receiving end of talk about it being (the first) French 9a - as far as everyone was concerned, Action Directe was it, end of story, and Hubble was and would only ever be 8c+.

Hagges

29-Apr-2012
2:40:54 PM

I give up

kieranl

29-Apr-2012
3:10:29 PM

On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>Thanks Dave J - was hoping you'd chime in! You did Braille Trail on a nail + 1 other piece of pro didn't you? All of the 'routes' certainly look tenuous, very hard to flash and easy to spooge off. (Pete Whittaker - look away) How hard was Master's Edge up top? It looks like it doesn't ease up much!

>BTW: Kieran, you won the thread. You get to pick the soundtrack.

On 29/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>>Just when I thought I understood the British grades...
>
>Maybe the British technical grades are fine, just because of the massive
>name associated with these, no one ever said 'oi wait a sec, maybe 6b not
>6c'? Which would fit perfectly with a 7b+ French rating / 26 Aussie.
>That said, grades make no sense when they intersect with slabs.
>
>It's similar to how only recently has Hubble been on the receiving end
>of talk about it being (the first) French 9a - as far as everyone was concerned,
>Action Directe was it, end of story, and Hubble was and would only ever
>be 8c+.
So Hubble was a slab climb? That explains a lot.

Dave J

29-Apr-2012
3:19:18 PM

On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>Thanks Dave J - was hoping you'd chime in! You did Braille Trail on a nail
>+ 1 other piece of pro didn't you?

The nail was good I thought, then there was a terrible piton wrapped in cardboard that was never going to stay in but took a bit of heat off the nail...and then there was a small cam atthe end of the traverse that I'd thought was ok. And I fell on it and it held. And, if you tucked your feet up, it would keep you off the ground. I may possibly have been the first person to actually take that fall.

>look away) How hard was Master's Edge up top? It looks like it doesn't
>ease up much!

I think the hardest move on Masters Edge is right at the top. Being quarried grit its much more about crimping on edges than smearing. Physically harder but more secure.

I gave up trying to understand the UK grading system. It seemed like 6c encompassed everything from easy moves up to stuff I couldn't even imagine doing and E7 stretched from 23 to 30. There was an E6 I did called Messiah that was harder than any of the E7s or 8s I tried. Best policy seemed to be just to see something that excited you and then hop on and see if you could climb it.


davidn

29-Apr-2012
4:03:17 PM

On 29/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>So Hubble was a slab climb? That explains a lot.

Well, I was more talking about how climbs with big names can sometimes hold their grade against all reality, but... Like I said, you get to (nit)pick the soundtrack!

dalai

29-Apr-2012
4:59:59 PM

On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>On 29/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>>So Hubble was a slab climb? That explains a lot.
>
>Well, I was more talking about how climbs with big names can sometimes
>hold their grade against all reality, but... Like I said, you get to (nit)pick
>the soundtrack!

On 29/04/2012 ajfclark wrote:
>UKC doesn't allow embedding the image Dalai. All I get is the little theft.gif.
> Here's the pic of the gear:

Thanks - I see my image but perhaps only because I am also logged on to UKClimbing?

@Davidn - you really do have an unhealthy obsession with numbers and don't seem to be able to comprehend anything beyond that...

dalai

29-Apr-2012
5:03:35 PM

On 29/04/2012 Dave J wrote:
>The nail was good I thought, then there was a terrible piton wrapped in
>cardboard that was never going to stay in but took a bit of heat off the
>nail...and then there was a small cam atthe end of the traverse that I'd
>thought was ok. And I fell on it and it held. And, if you tucked your feet
>up, it would keep you off the ground. I may possibly have been the first
>person to actually take that fall.


davidn

29-Apr-2012
5:21:52 PM

On 29/04/2012 dalai wrote:
>@Davidn - you really do have an unhealthy obsession with numbers and don't
>seem to be able to comprehend anything beyond that...

Look, I get that it's hard mentally. Om man ni pad me hum. Or is that om man ni 12 pads me hum?

I make my decisions on what to climb based on a few things, including the grade and whether my legs/ankles are likely to snap (again). If you call a high crux V8 a V5, or similar, then you're just trying to get people hurt because they won't be able to physically manage the moves, and might fall and get hurt. Therefore grades matter. Call it unhealthy, call it number chasing, call yourself the next Buddha for all I care! It matters. People can see the height, but they can't necessarily see how hard the crux might be if they work ground up.

Going by what Dave J said - would you happily jump on a route that could be anything from 23 to 30? Don't lie, Buddha is watching.

Hagges

29-Apr-2012
5:49:59 PM

On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>On 29/04/2012 dalai wrote:
>>@Davidn - you really do have an unhealthy obsession with numbers and
>don't
>>seem to be able to comprehend anything beyond that...
>
>Look, I get that it's hard mentally. Om man ni pad me hum. Or is that
>om man ni 12 pads me hum?
>
>I make my decisions on what to climb based on a few things, including
>the grade and whether my legs/ankles are likely to snap (again). If you
>call a high crux V8 a V5, or similar, then you're just trying to get people
>hurt because they won't be able to physically manage the moves, and might
>fall and get hurt. Therefore grades matter. Call it unhealthy, call it
>number chasing, call yourself the next Buddha for all I care! It matters.
> People can see the height, but they can't necessarily see how hard the
>crux might be if they work ground up.
>
>Going by what Dave J said - would you happily jump on a route that could
>be anything from 23 to 30? Don't lie, Buddha is watching.

I really truly give up

Dave J

29-Apr-2012
6:40:46 PM

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Dalai.

I haven't seen that for a while. I just remember it all being about standing up on that left foot smear and having faith that it wouldn't skate. Watching that video now it looks like I ran out of faith and just leapt off rather than testing it out. On a top-rope that smear felt totally solid but I fell off there on lead 2 or 3 times due to mind freeze.

Dave J

29-Apr-2012
7:01:18 PM

For contrast here is Johnny Dawes recreating his first ascent from the security of a toprope

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Dt8ISoc0lcg

You get to be a bit more flamboyant with your leg waggles when you're on a top-rope. I bet he wasn't doing that on the sharp end.

dalai

29-Apr-2012
7:32:06 PM

I'm with you hagges...

On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
> If you call a high crux V8 a V5, or similar, then you're just trying to get people
>hurt because they won't be able to physically manage the moves, and might
>fall and get hurt.

You were the one that brought V grades into the discussion in the second post. Video only mentions they are all E7 6c... The fact that in the Uk they will use either font grades or B grades anyway, not sure where the V grade came into it.

Of course you choose the route first based on the line regardless of the crux grade! Climbing for me was always about the asthetics - the look of the line, the sequences that the rock offer.

I only bouldered on grit, but if I'd tied in I would have TR'ed the hell out of the routes till I was confident I could do the move at least 90% of the time! By focussing on numbers it doesn't acknowledge what these guys are doing ground up or even headpointing. ie your dismissive remark "He's a V14 climber so these are obviously well within his capabilities (something like V7 moves?), he obviously has good beta and the correct gear and in the case of the first route, a perfect line of chalk to follow. "

In regards to the chalk comment, given these routes are often tried on TR, you may find that the optimistic types may chalk up features that in the end won't be used.

With grades anyway, it is merely a rough estimation to offer a general guide. The difficulty of a move can vary greatly from person to person due to physiological reasons and from a persons preference for a particular style of climb!

Case in point - classic 7c+ in Buoux J'irai cracher sur vos tombes. It is a steep headwall of mono's and duo's that branches out above the 7b slab crux of La cage aux orchidees. Found the headwall far easier than the slab even though it was a few grades harder...

You really need to go to the UK, stand under these routes and soak in the history and get a feel for what grit climbing is all about. Rather than obsess whether the harder section of a route is V7 or otherwise...

One Day Hero

29-Apr-2012
10:13:55 PM

Dalai, is it in your moderator contract that you can't call someone a ballsack, even when they are clearly being a ballsack?


Macciza

30-Apr-2012
1:05:39 AM

I may as well make a comment - as I generally aspire to ground-up / onsight attempts; and have been known to climb the occasional route that fits the 'E' tradition . . .

At one point I even designed a modified Ewbank version of it - E for 'engagement' - you lnow, for those moment when you are 'really' engaged aka 'would be scared, but was too frightened to think about it' . . . But ultimately the 'skull and crossbones' system works if applied properly, and hopefully keeps the bumblies off,

Shai Hulud - a fine climb by Davy J in in hey-day gets 3 s&c or E5 on the engagement scale with a short exposed 23 ishcrux section, Gigantor on DogFace is probably only E3 but more sustained round 24ish . . .

Anyway just HTFU and attempt as much as you can groundup and take the falls rather than just 'take' and you might get a taste of what it is all about . .

Cheers
MM

There are 61 messages in this topic.