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Chockstone Forum - Find Climbers

Find Climbers In Your Area

 Page 7 of 8. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160
Author
1 x belay for Indoor / outdoor - (non vcc thread)
egosan
21/02/2010
2:37:07 PM
dmnz is correct in saying that leading is nothing arcane. I do think he is painting with too
broad a brush when it comes "clubs." Though I have heard horror stories about log books
and sign offs from multiple existing leaders to be come accredited as a leader, this has not
been my experience.

I have been involved with the VCC for a year now. The scenario usually plays out
something like this: "So I heard you want to lead." "Cool." "Let's go find an easy route."

All of the reasons I have seen that stop people from becoming leaders are self imposed.
Whether it be lack of self-assurance or lack of ambition, it is still not the club preventing
anyone form leading.


k
21/02/2010
3:03:17 PM

All this talk of 'the clubs' is not very helpful. The clubs are all very different. At the risk of getting flamed, here is my understanding of what the different clubs are mostly for and what their attitudes are toward leading.

RMIT Outdoors Club
For: hiring gear, binge drinking, getting laid
Learning to lead: They are cautious. Very cautious. It can take years cautious.

VCC
For: finding climbing partners, drinking tea, learning offensive jokes
Learning to lead: Straightforward, very similar to learning from your mates, only you are more likely to get taught by someone with more experience than your mates.

Melbourne Uni Mountain Club
For: stealing gear, bouldering on campus, talking about how great you are
Learning to lead: Ok. Sometimes questionable practices.

If anyone knows about Monash, Western Vic Climbing Club or Latrobe, feel free to add details.
egosan
21/02/2010
3:08:59 PM
Some of us drink bourbon and call it tea to fit in.

Sarah Gara
21/02/2010
4:38:11 PM
I'm all for the tea. The VCC is getting a bit gourmet recently - they were cooking kangeroo steaks last time I was out with them - I had my 2min noodles with tuna.

Simey I thinkk you are being a little pedantic but I take your point and value your opinion. I think we are using safe and cautious in different contexts I was using safe in a more general way in terms of, as egosan was saying, a dynamic risk assessment rather than refering to individual placements. I will in future though remember that placements aren't safe. -something can always go wrong. ( it was simey that stopped me calling it the araps! - and my that annoys me now when i hear others doing it!!)

and in terms of lamplighter incident - that was my point that I'm not always safe (I am always cautious that's why I put the cam in - just forgot/missed when I clipped/didn't clip it) what I was saying that I still had a lot to learn and mistakes are easily made. climbing is a risky business but that still doesn't mean that it takes 2years before you can be competent (is that better than safe?) and lead a route while doing all the Dynamic risk assesments etc... I hope we never actually have to do the forms - I had to do them at my last job *yawn*

so competent? is that ok? x
simey
21/02/2010
7:35:39 PM
On 21/02/2010 k wrote:
>
>All this talk of 'the clubs' is not very helpful. The clubs are all very
>different. At the risk of getting flamed, here is my understanding of what
>the different clubs are mostly for and what their attitudes are toward
>leading.
>
>RMIT Outdoors Club
>For: hiring gear, binge drinking, getting laid
>Learning to lead: They are cautious. Very cautious. It can take years
>cautious.
>
>VCC
>For: finding climbing partners, drinking tea, learning offensive jokes
>Learning to lead: Straightforward, very similar to learning from your
>mates, only you are more likely to get taught by someone with more experience
>than your mates.
>
>Melbourne Uni Mountain Club
>For: stealing gear, bouldering on campus, talking about how great you
>are
>Learning to lead: Ok. Sometimes questionable practices.
>
>If anyone knows about Monash, Western Vic Climbing Club or Latrobe, feel
>free to add details.


From my experience and understanding, I think that is a pretty accurate assessment of those particular clubs.

ajfclark
21/02/2010
8:33:44 PM
On 21/02/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>they were cooking kangeroo steaks last time I was out with them

On red stoves?
k
21/02/2010
9:55:10 PM
On 21/02/2010 simey wrote:
>From my experience and understanding, I think that is a pretty accurate
>assessment of those particular clubs.

I didn't know you'd cottoned on to the opportunities presented by RMIT outdoors club beginner trips to araps, Simey.

dalai
21/02/2010
10:00:53 PM
On 21/02/2010 k wrote:
>On 21/02/2010 simey wrote:
>>From my experience and understanding, I think that is a pretty accurate
>>assessment of those particular clubs.
>
>I didn't know you'd cottoned on to the opportunities presented by RMIT
>outdoors club beginner trips to araps, Simey.
>

You hadn't noticed that Simey was on chockstone less and when posting was not as grumpy coincided when the uni clubs had their trips to Araps? ;-)
k
21/02/2010
10:02:25 PM
On 21/02/2010 dalai wrote:
>You hadn't noticed that Simey was on chockstone less and when posting
>was not as grumpy coincided when the uni clubs had their trips to Araps?
>;-)

Oh, now you mention it...
Wendy
21/02/2010
10:15:50 PM
On 21/02/2010 k wrote:

>
>If anyone knows about Monash, Western Vic Climbing Club or Latrobe, feel
>free to add details.
>
The only thing I know about Latrobe is the collection of well and truly not uni aged climbers who teach their beginners weekends each year purely for the talent. And actually I don't think Simey is one of them. I'm not sure how he missed this opportunity.
Wendy
21/02/2010
10:33:50 PM
On 21/02/2010 dmnz wrote:
>yes leading is way over 'hyped' and sorry to say this but i think this
>is due in part to the clubs and making sure people are 'competent' before
>letting them use the club gear, take part in certain trips etc so that
>the ability to lead is mystified. all it is is climbing above gear and
>learning to place gear. at the end of the day it is a matter of the ability
>to keep cool and make good judgments, incl the judgment to back off where
>required.

Strangely enough, there still seems to be no shortage of people who have been climbing for longer than 2 years who have failed to develop this judgement. People whom I observe making poor calls on gear placement, route selection, rope management, route finding ... Maybe it really is rocket science.

>
>
>
>guides and clubs make out 'learn to lead' things as being something it's
>not. sure, if you can afford it and want to take the guide path great
>give some folk a job but if not find someone who is competent and they
>are ususally able to teach you as well and you may even get a partner out
>of it.

You may also get one of the forementioned who haven't really got the gist of rocket science. If your the sort of person who does get it, you'll probably work enough out eventually. If not, you might not ever recognise the short comings in your teacher and what you are being taught.

in those situations the 'teacher' has a vested interest in your
>abilities so you'll probably learn more and quicker than with the guide
>(no offence to them but they are only concerned to the extent of a job
>and that's the way it should be), and save some $$$ to buy your own gear.

Actually, I would suggest you'd learn more and quicker from a guide because (a) they are practiced and efficient at teaching (b) know their stuff and (c) you and your learning are the sole focus of the exercise.

Plenty of us learnt in less than fabulous scenarios and we're obviously still here to tell the tale, but that doesn't mean we want this to continue to be standard. The more people who get a solid grounding from someone who is competant, as opposed to those who think they are more competant than they are, the better. How long that grounding takes tends to depend on how quickly they come to understand rocket science.
Wendy
21/02/2010
10:36:57 PM
I can't believe this thread has been hijacked again. How disrespectful. It must be the VCC behind it.
dalai
21/02/2010
10:45:31 PM
On 21/02/2010 Wendy wrote:
>The more people who get a solid grounding from someone
>who is competant, as opposed to those who think they are more competant
>than they are, the better. How long that grounding takes tends to depend
>on how quickly they come to understand rocket science.

The sooner everyone has a ground fall the quicker they realise how easy accidents can happen even with experienced climbers belaying and if they survive tend to climb more cautiously...
simey
21/02/2010
10:48:41 PM
On 21/02/2010 dalai wrote:
>On 21/02/2010 k wrote:
>>On 21/02/2010 simey wrote:
>>>From my experience and understanding, I think that is a pretty accurate
>>>assessment of those particular clubs.
>>
>>I didn't know you'd cottoned on to the opportunities presented by RMIT
>>outdoors club beginner trips to araps, Simey.
>>
>
>You hadn't noticed that Simey was on chockstone less and when posting
>was not as grumpy coincided when the uni clubs had their trips to Araps?
>;-)

I've never been been on RMIT trips but I was aware there were a few perks or downsides (depending on how participants perceived their experiences).

As for my experiences on climbing club trips... well they were all back in my early days when I was a shy, innocent lad who only ever thought about climbing. Girls didn't really enter my thinking back then.
dalai
21/02/2010
10:57:23 PM
You don't need to go on RMIT trips, I hear all it takes you is to cruise Golden Streak for the billionth time infront of the impressionable nubile female beginners... ;-)
simey
21/02/2010
10:59:42 PM
I doubt that I have ever scored with that act (unfortunately).
dmnz
22/02/2010
10:59:32 AM
On 21/02/2010 egosan wrote:
>dmnz is correct in saying that leading is nothing arcane. I do think he
>is painting with too
>broad a brush when it comes "clubs." Though I have heard horror stories
>about log books
>and sign offs from multiple existing leaders to be come accredited as
>a leader, this has not
>been my experience.
>
>I have been involved with the VCC for a year now. The scenario usually
>plays out
>something like this: "So I heard you want to lead." "Cool." "Let's
>go find an easy route."
>
>All of the reasons I have seen that stop people from becoming leaders
>are self imposed.
>Whether it be lack of self-assurance or lack of ambition, it is still
>not the club preventing
>anyone form leading.
>

I dont know if I said the club stops you from leading but they make it out to be something all big and mighty that its not. all it is is learning to be responsible for yourself.

people should go read some of the classic mountaineering texts and see how some of these guys got to do their first leads.

if the club thing works for you great, do it. nothing against it. but there are other ways to learn rather than ONLY doing learn to lead courses. whatever works for you and floats your boat
>
>
Paul
22/02/2010
11:58:46 AM
On 22/02/2010 dmnz wrote:
>On 21/02/2010 egosan wrote:
>>dmnz is correct in saying that leading is nothing arcane. I do think
>he
>>is painting with too
>>broad a brush when it comes "clubs." Though I have heard horror stories
>>about log books
>>and sign offs from multiple existing leaders to be come accredited as
>>a leader, this has not
>>been my experience.
>>
>>I have been involved with the VCC for a year now. The scenario usually
>>plays out
>>something like this: "So I heard you want to lead." "Cool." "Let's
>>go find an easy route."
>>
>>All of the reasons I have seen that stop people from becoming leaders
>>are self imposed.
>>Whether it be lack of self-assurance or lack of ambition, it is still
>>not the club preventing
>>anyone form leading.
>>
>
>I dont know if I said the club stops you from leading but they make it
>out to be something all big and mighty that its not. all it is is learning
>to be responsible for yourself.
>
Wrong.

Unless you are lead soloing it is more than just being responcible for your self, what about your belayer / second? It is probable more about being responsible for others if anything, your second needs to be able to trust your belaying, your anchors and if they are of lesser experience that you can get them out of trouble.

I have been involved in training with uni outdoors clubs, where I have taught a number of people climbing skills ranging from basic setups and belaying through to leading. Some people who have asked to learn to lead have become anoyed when I say no, you are not ready yet. Hence some of the bad stigma about clubs. However if you can setup a nearly complete top rope climb in just over an hour chances are you propably aren't quite ready yet. Some people seem to have difficulty accepting this.

There was one person on a trip once who chose to debate the point the first 12 times that I asked them to put their helmet on before belaying at a the base of a cliff with a number of loose rocks. They then seemed confused when I said no when they asked me to teach them to lead.

I know that some people in clubs can be a bit overprotective however it can take just one major accident to end the clubs funding or spoil the reputation of the organisation.


>people should go read some of the classic mountaineering texts and see
>how some of these guys got to do their first leads.
>

Although those who die through trial and error never seem to write classic mountaineering texts. Those who write the books about epics are often the lucky ones.

>if the club thing works for you great, do it. nothing against it. but
>there are other ways to learn rather than ONLY doing learn to lead courses.
> whatever works for you and floats your boat
>>
>>

There is no substitute for being taught by someone who has experience, be it club, course or a climbing partner (in my opinion).
egosan
22/02/2010
12:06:41 PM
On 22/02/2010 dmnz wrote:
>I dont know if I said the club stops you from leading but they make it
>out to be something all big and mighty that its not.

Huh? There is that paint brush again. Who is this "they" you speak of?
In my brief experience with the VCC no one has made a big deal out of it.

>all it is is learning to be responsible for yourself.

Agreed.

>people should go read some of the classic mountaineering texts and see
>how some of these guys got to do their first leads.

More good advice. I recommend "The Villan: A Portrait of Don Whillens."

>if the club thing works for you great, do it. nothing against it. but
>there are other ways to learn rather than ONLY doing learn to lead courses.
> whatever works for you and floats your boat

The Learn to Lead Course offered by the VCC is one route to getting basic
leading skills. It is not the ONLY way VCC members learn to lead. Many
just come to club trips start seconding and before long they are leading easy
routes if that is their wish.

I am being a bit pedantic with you dmnz. For good reason I hope. Your
views of clubs and the experiences that lead to them in no way
reflects my experience with the VCC.

Cheers,
Sol

IdratherbeclimbingM9
22/02/2010
12:22:50 PM
On 21/02/2010 Wendy wrote:
>Strangely enough, there still seems to be no shortage of people who have
>been climbing for longer than 2 years who have failed to develop this judgement.
> People whom I observe making poor calls on gear placement, route selection,
>rope management, route finding ... Maybe it really is rocket science.
>
... or maybe a bit of luck, judgement, rocket science, intuition, learning from competent, peer or guide, luck again!

It is a variable thing, and this is one of the aspects about lead-climbing that I enjoy. Getting in over ones depth of experience is not all bad, provided the individual has the resources of mind and body to work their way through the new experience they are gaining(!), ... indeed cautiously/safely or by the skin of their teeth, as the case may be.


>Plenty of us learnt in less than fabulous scenarios and we're obviously
>still here to tell the tale, but that doesn't mean we want this to continue
>to be standard. The more people who get a solid grounding from someone
>who is competant, as opposed to those who think they are more competant
>than they are, the better. How long that grounding takes tends to depend
>on how quickly they come to understand rocket science.

... or their own limitations?


~> The mind is a wonderful thing. If a person doesn't know 'they can't' do something, then the possibility becomes conceivable!

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