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Chockstone Forum - Find Climbers

Find Climbers In Your Area

 Page 6 of 8. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160
Author
1 x belay for Indoor / outdoor - (non vcc thread)
k
19/02/2010
4:44:35 PM
yes but tracey, how cool are your tattoos? and is bridh likely to get a photo of himself seconding Pilot Error topless on a VCC trip. You leave out important details.
Access T CliffCare
19/02/2010
4:47:18 PM
On 19/02/2010 k wrote:
>yes but tracey, how cool are your tattoos? and is bridh likely to get a
>photo of himself seconding Pilot Error topless on a VCC trip. You leave
>out important details.

My tatoos are for my eyes only - too cool to be seen. I do have to admit though, I don't even have a photo of myself seconding Pilot Error topless. Aaah, my goal for the year....
egosan
19/02/2010
4:52:38 PM
On 19/02/2010 rolsen1 wrote:
>I've taught two people to lead trad and are currently teaching two more
>- I reckon the first two took at least 2 years before I was happy with
>where they were at (I know this sounds wanky but you know what I mean)
>it takes a lot of time to learn trad and be experienced in a variety of
>settings, that's a lot of VCC trips - assuming you get the same quality
>teaching.

Two years? This is not the black magic. No need for the Sorcerer's Apprentice
to take the trial of fire and wind.

Forgive my sarcasm, but this is exactly the sort of thing I suspect Bridh was
worried about before chockstone rained frogs in his garden. You mention quality
teaching? Care to enlighten us with your curriculum? How do you evaluate
your students? What is a passing grade?

I am not sure exactly why roslen1 has rubbed me the wrong way here. Maybe,
it is just Friday arvo and my temper is short. We learn to climb by climbing. It
ain't complicated. Go climbing!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/02/2010
4:54:48 PM
On 19/02/2010 access t wrote:
>On 19/02/2010 k wrote:
>>yes but tracey, how cool are your tattoos? and is bridh likely to get
>a
>>photo of himself seconding Pilot Error topless on a VCC trip. You leave
>>out important details.
>
>My tatoos are for my eyes only - too cool to be seen. I do have to admit
>though, I don't even have a photo of myself seconding Pilot Error topless.
> Aaah, my goal for the year....

I did not know the VCC was about to have a recruitment drive?
Heh, heh, heh.
egosan
19/02/2010
5:00:49 PM
On 19/02/2010 access t wrote:
>On 19/02/2010 k wrote:
>>yes but tracey, how cool are your tattoos? and is bridh likely to get
>a
>>photo of himself seconding Pilot Error topless on a VCC trip. You leave
>>out important details.
>
>My tatoos are for my eyes only - too cool to be seen. I do have to admit
>though, I don't even have a photo of myself seconding Pilot Error topless.
> Aaah, my goal for the year....

I will give you a boost. With a little good cropping you will cut feet loose above the
abyss.

Sarah Gara
19/02/2010
6:09:05 PM
ego san wrote
>
>Two years? This is not the black magic. No need for the Sorcerer's Apprentice
>
>to take the trial of fire and wind.
>

I agree completely - I've not even been climbing 2yrs and I'm quite happy leading. Have the odd hab dab every now and back off 10s frequently (well the same 10 twice) and don't climb hard but I'm safe.

Philivan has only been leading a short while and I have complete confidence with his gear and judgement ( and he is climbing hard - well pretty hard) - It's not rocket science. Always room for improvement but 2yrs to get the basics - who were you teaching? x

wallwombat
19/02/2010
6:50:35 PM
Yeah, I agree. It's not rocket science.

It's like some of the posts you see on rockclimbing.com in the US - " I've been climbing for three years now and can second trad up to 5.10b. When do you think I'll be ready to lead?" . I always think to myself, ".....umm...two years and nine months ago....ya numby" . Leading becomes mystified and lots of beginners become scared at the very idea. Sometimes the longer you put it off, the scarier it becomes.

But I suppose it does depend om the individual. You can teach some people how to make a perfect omelette in ten minutes. Other people will never be able to make a perfect omelette, no matter what. Climbing is a bit the same.

I also think some people underestimate the value of reading up on the subject. I'd read Royal Robbins two books, Basic Rockcraft and Advanced Rockcraft about a hundred times before I ever saw a harness or a rope or a pair of climbing shoes.

It's a bit like uni - you go to lectures and someone tells you about it, you go to tutorials and you discuss it but you also have text books and in my experience, the top students are the ones who have read the text book twice before the session is half finished and has then asked their supervisor for the names of a few other texts to read. It's all about enthusiasm. It's all about taking an active interest.

Anyway, what would I know. I'm just a "soft" "dickhead" "amateur".
rolsen1
19/02/2010
6:52:50 PM
On 19/02/2010 egosan wrote:
>Two years? This is not the black magic. No need for the Sorcerer's Apprentice
>to take the trial of fire and wind.

Learning is about being in situations that challenge your previous assumptions and leading you to new
insights and greater appreciation of the breadth and subtleties of the subject. So learn to place really
good gear in all situations, it takes lots of climbing in lots of different crags on different types of
routes with opportunities to discuss and reflect on what has happened and what you learned with
someone who is experienced.

I reckon 2 years from nothing to skilled independent leader who is able to teach others in any situation
is about right in my limited experience and sample size of 2. And I'm talking about semi regular
weekend warriors not pines residents. How often do you have to use jiggery pokey like stacking nuts,
using gear in opposition, assessing whether gear will hold.... things like these take time to learn.

But maybe I'm a slow learner and crappy teacher.

>Care to enlighten us with your curriculum?

There is a quicker "Rock Climbing for Dummies" which teaches you to lead trad in 30 days
guaranteed, that one would probably suit you better. Especially tailored for routes with easy to place
gear bomber gear for leaders who never fall and only climb 3 star classics at Araps.


>I am not sure exactly why roslen1 has rubbed me the wrong way here. Maybe,
>
>it is just Friday arvo and my temper is short. We learn to climb by climbing.
> It
>ain't complicated. Go climbing!

No offense taken, I only post on here when I'm bored as well
one day hero
19/02/2010
9:23:48 PM
On 19/02/2010 wallwombat wrote
>
You can teach some people
>how to make a perfect omelette in ten minutes. Other people will never
>be able to make a perfect omelette, no matter what. Climbing is a bit the
>same.
>
So..........I either have the pan hot and burn the bottom or turn the heat down and find it goes rubbery by time its cooked. I can never seem to get a clean release, even with a teflon pan........seriously!

Will I never be able to make the perfect omelette?
k
19/02/2010
9:52:15 PM
On 19/02/2010 wallwombat wrote:
>But I suppose it does depend om the individual. You can teach some people
>how to make a perfect omelette in ten minutes. Other people will never
>be able to make a perfect omelette, no matter what. Climbing is a bit the
>same.

You're right wallwombat. I've tried to train some real liabilities (as a friend only. I am not a guide). It definitely depends on the individual and their motivation to learn. Some people are just not interested in learning all the things they need to know (like how to belay safely) or the things you think they should know (like how to place gear well), and some just don't get it.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
19/02/2010
10:15:09 PM
k wrote;
>Some people are just not interested in learning all the things they need to know (like how to belay safely) or the things you think they should know (like how to place gear well), and some just don't get it.

...and the worst are those who 'think they get it', but don't, as they are positively dangerous.

wallwombat wrote;
>It's like some of the posts you see on rockclimbing.com in the US - " I've been climbing for three years now and can second trad up to 5.10b. When do you think I'll be ready to lead?"

I read a book a long time ago, where an aid ace who had soloed hard Yosemite walls was asked for advice by a wannabe on "how long do you reckon before I can aid climb hard lines like you". His reply was along the lines of ... 'if you have to ask me, then you are never going to make it!'; ie tantamount to saying you need to get out there and try for yourself...

ambyeok
19/02/2010
10:53:44 PM
On 19/02/2010 rolsen1 wrote:
How often do you have to use jiggery
>pokey like stacking nuts,
>using gear in opposition, assessing whether gear will hold.... things
>like these take time to learn.

Crickey, I have been leading well over a year now and still dont know how to stack nuts. OMG, time is running out...
egosan
20/02/2010
9:07:41 AM
On 19/02/2010 ambyeok wrote:
>On 19/02/2010 rolsen1 wrote:
>How often do you have to use jiggery
>>pokey like stacking nuts,
>>using gear in opposition, assessing whether gear will hold.... things
>>like these take time to learn.
>
>Crickey, I have been leading well over a year now and still dont know
>how to stack nuts. OMG, time is running out...

Just a hint, Ambyeok, practice with your friends nuts before you try it with your own nuts.
One Day Hero
21/02/2010
12:13:03 AM
Good advice, but if you stack your nuts against your friends nuts......you're both gay!

Sarah Gara
21/02/2010
8:59:31 AM
oh come on... I have on occasion tried to stack nuts. then I thought sod this and used a bigger nut - or a different crack... or a hex. If I really need to to though I could - just phaffy and so far in my experience I've never needed to but I understand the concept of it. It's not rocket science boys.

Maybe I'll never be able to make the best omelet but I have the judgement as to whether something is safe or not... and I'm probably too cautious but I think that's better than getting egg shell in your chalk bag. x
simey
21/02/2010
11:17:45 AM
On 19/02/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>...don't climb hard but I'm safe.

On 21/02/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>but I have the judgement as to whether something is safe or not...

I think you need to use different terminology rather than the word 'safe'. Even very experienced climbers with very good judgement can come unstuck. You are kidding yourself if you think you are immune to the possibility of having an accident.



Sarah Gara
21/02/2010
11:48:19 AM
When did I ever suggest that? I'm teerified of having an accident I hate hurting myself -I struggle with bruises!

What terminology would you like to use Simey? I don't think I'm immune to having an accident -that's exactly why i wouldn't solo. You can't take into account slipping, falling rock etc.

However that's not the issue here - we are talking about how long it takes to learn to lead. I fully admit that I've got a hell of a lot to learn and i thank those (esp VCC members!!) that teach me every time I climb - I always learn new stuff when i climb.

Also I agree that sometimes you can panic and make mistakes (i went off route on lamplighter and struggled to get gear and then forgot to clip it!! because I panicked)

I have a healthy fear when I climb. and I'm a bit of a whimp. I want to use the word safe... what would you recommend instead simey? x
egosan
21/02/2010
12:28:06 PM
On 21/02/2010 simey wrote:
>I think you need to use different terminology rather than the word 'safe'.
>Even very experienced climbers with very good judgement can come unstuck.
>You are kidding yourself if you think you are immune to the possibility
>of having an accident.

Everytime I see the word safe, I think of Marathon Man. "Is it safe?"
(If you don't get it, download Marathon Man and enjoy.)

As we are fearful, irrational and inherently subjective creatures, it is
very difficult to make good risk assessments. The first step is
figuring out what the fcuk a risk assesment is.

First define the hazard. In climbing that is easy, it is typically one of
only a handful of things. It will probably be falling, something falling
on you, gear failure, or a human error.

Next, determine the likelihood of the hazard happening. Am I tired,
cold and disoriented standing at the top of this abseil in the dark? Yes,
the like chance of me screwing up is much higher than I like. Am I
confident, fresh and starting a climb well within my grade? The chance
of me falling before I clip that first high bolt is pretty low.

Examine the consequence of the hazard occurring. If I fcuk up on that
abseil, I will die. If I slip early in that climb I might break or sprain
something.

Finally do some multiplication: likelihood x consequence = risk. Then
decide how much risk you are willing to take. If the risk is too high or you
are too soft then mitigate it if you can.

At the top of that abseil in the fading light, I might have to compare the
relative risks of two bad choices, a bivouac in bad weather or a hairy
abseil. So I mitigate by going slow and triple checking my whole abseil
system and use an extra wrap on my backup prussic.

At the bottom of the easy climb I briefly consider a stick clip or a crash
mat, then shake my head and tell myself to harden up.

So I get angry every time safety comes up in discussions about climbing.
Getting off your damn couch is not safe. Safe happens when you get to
first base before the ball.

So to answer the question, Sarah. Talk about how much risk you are willing
to expose yourself to. Consider the relative risks of climbing lamplighter
and driving 4 hours to Mt. Arapiles exhausted on a Friday night after a long
week while dodging drunk friday night bogans the whole way.

To wrap up my rant, I post my new favorite quote again:

"Insisting on absolute safety is for
people who don't have the balls to live in the real world."
- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center


simey
21/02/2010
12:44:42 PM
On 21/02/2010 Sarah Gara wrote:
>I have a healthy fear when I climb. and I'm a bit of a whimp. I want to use the word safe... what would you recommend instead simey? x

Rather than describing yourself as 'safe', I would use the term 'cautious'. And rather than describe well-placed protection as 'safe', I would use the term 'well-placed', or 'solid' (or some other adjective).

Maybe I am being pedantic, but I would choose different words to describe yourself given that you have just described an incident on a moderate route where you went off-route, panicked, and forget to clip gear. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

dmnz
21/02/2010
2:14:07 PM
yes leading is way over 'hyped' and sorry to say this but i think this is due in part to the clubs and making sure people are 'competent' before letting them use the club gear, take part in certain trips etc so that the ability to lead is mystified. all it is is climbing above gear and learning to place gear. at the end of the day it is a matter of the ability to keep cool and make good judgments, incl the judgment to back off where required.

the other reason why leading is mystified IMO is that peopel are not willing to learn to lead on easy stuff first. 'nah i dont want to climb no 'x' grade' is the attitude'. its the 'gimme now consumerist societal views' where people have no patience to learn. well if you climb within your abilities and take your time you will pick up those skills. (why we have such a proliferation of sport climbers today to the bemusement of some) placing gear is not that tricky to learn. most people i know buy some gear and work it out themselves with the aid of some books, and some advice/guidance from others who have been doing it longer. that's how most things are learnt.

guides and clubs make out 'learn to lead' things as being something it's not. sure, if you can afford it and want to take the guide path great give some folk a job but if not find someone who is competent and they are ususally able to teach you as well and you may even get a partner out of it. in those situations the 'teacher' has a vested interest in your abilities so you'll probably learn more and quicker than with the guide (no offence to them but they are only concerned to the extent of a job and that's the way it should be), and save some $$$ to buy your own gear.

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