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Chockstone Forum - Find Climbers

Find Climbers In Your Area

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 50
Author
Help find Prabh Srawn $50,000 reward

Superstu
Online Now
6/06/2013
5:24:47 PM






Sabu
6/06/2013
6:55:53 PM
Just flicked through the FB page. Seems to be a lot of frustration being directed at S&R teams which is disappointing. Also read that this is the longest search effort that has been conducted.
grangrump
6/06/2013
8:44:14 PM
Thoughts to any family or friends reading this thread.
I wouldnt be very surprised if someone from overseas, fit, but unused to Australian scrub, walked up on easy tracks from the East to above the treeline, knew of a hut just a few km to the west (and with country perhaps not seeming too bad from Google Maps etc) and headed on.
But anyone who has walked SW from Mt K. below the treeline will know that it is horrendous to navigate on a good day, and almost impossible to find someone in.
patto
7/06/2013
1:41:14 AM
Oh dear.... :-( This would be hilarious if the circumstance wasn't so grave.

I've just had a read of a couple of articles and the facebook page. What we have here is a BSAR by social media and viral marketing complete with large dose of prayer thrown in for good measure.

There is no doubt his friends and family are skilled viral marketers. You just need to look at how the facebook page has exploded from friends and family to hundreds of random supporters posting every day. It has been an amazing effort and amazing growth.

Unfortunately none of that changes the fact that the guy has been missing in the bush for almost a month follow a single day hike.
Mr Poopypants
7/06/2013
1:58:21 AM
On 5/06/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
........are they infested
>with drop bears? A fire swamp, perhaps?

Inconceivable!

Miguel75
7/06/2013
8:07:38 AM
On 7/06/2013 Mr Poopypants wrote:
>Inconceivable!

I do not think it means what you think it means...
martym
7/06/2013
10:16:47 PM
On 5/06/2013 GWil wrote:
>Don't take the bait on this, folks.
>GW

GWil - for someone who rarely posts on this site, you've sure gone spraying here. You'd think this was a scam or something?
Here's a family trying to encourage people to help find their missing son - they're from Canada, they know what cold conditions are like - he's from the military - they know what worrying about loved ones is like. They know that people get tired and lose hope, they're trying to encourage them to stay at it.

If I were you - I'd go back and delete all my reckless, disgusting posts. This kind of stuff should never be posted.

I wish them all the best - Jaimie Neale surprised everyone by walking out of the Blueys alive after 12 days with a bread roll. (& while googling - another Jaimie Neal has pulled a similar stunt in Peru!)
newclimber
10/06/2013
11:36:35 AM
GW- I pray that you never are put in their position. You seem very immature to post all this nonsense without actually checking any facts.

If anyone actually bothers to read the newspaper articles out there you will
see holes all over what the police officers have been saying. They said
they were still searching for him and the search was scaled back , when in fact
it had been permanently called off. No one is looking for him right now and
that explains why the family is putting this out there.

According to the articles I am reading they have consulted medical experts and
climbers to ensure that those who try for this are following proper regulations.
There are certain rules in place so not just anyone can try for this. The
lead organizer is a big time doctor so I doubt he would try to risk anyone's
health and he obviously knows better.

If you read carefully the latest post by them, it is now offered "dead or alive".

If you look at some of the family tweets you will realize that there has been
a lot of problems with authorities on the search. They claimed they had searched
his car at the beginning when in reality they hadn't until pushed by the family to
double check and that is when they found his laptop which clearly marked the
area he was exploring. The cops messed up on that and numerous times they
have mentioned an area had been searched when later they admitted it hadn't.

He is a master corporal from the military and has been trained in such conditions
so the family believes he could be alive. Either way a family wants their
loved one back so that is why the reward now says "dead or alive".The reports
say a male voice was heard at one point but they did not have enough man
power to look carefully and then the next day they call off the search.
The search should have been expanded and not cancelled at that point.

They are not asking people to risk their life and that is why only experienced
hikers and climbers would be eligible for this.

Please do not put a negative twist on this. I feel for the family and what
they are going through. It's horrible and not to mention being foreigners
in an area where the police keep saying one thing and then another.

Superstu
Online Now
11/06/2013
8:29:10 AM
Have the critics of the S&R services here actually ever been involved in a search of this nature? If you had you would have a deep respect for the S&R services professionalism in the face of an immensely difficult and sensitive task.

We have established the family is well adept at social media manipulation, also of the media itself and even politicians back home. For the S&R services there is one dedicated PR person who has the unenviable task of getting specific information out necessary to assist the search, but simultaneously trying to prevent a hungry media sensationalising the story or drumming up a someone-done-bad slant to fill the pages of their papers. So embarking on a slanging match with the grieving family over the efforts of the search is undesirable.

The S&R squad and their volunteers cannot continue searching indefinitely courtesy australian taxpayer and endless volunteer goodwill, and given the information they were working on (he left with nothing but a tshirt and jeans a month ago in an alpine environment, and it has since snowed) it is quite reasonable to scale back the search despite the sad news that this implies.

Gwil took offense and I took to bad humour to display disgust at the original offering from the family to continue the search - in the form of a reality-TV-style bounty to find him alive (but if you search all month and turn up nothing or worse a lifeless body, then bzzzz you lose no prizes for you). They have now since humanised their request for a continued search and hopefully closure.

The five stages of grief are denial, then anger, bargaining, followed by depression and finally acceptance. Sad that it has been such a public spectacle.

Sabu
11/06/2013
9:23:01 AM
I too find this intense public criticism of S&R teams by the family disturbing. It is understandable that the family are going through a very difficult time and dealing with very intense emotions but taking this anger, frustration and grief out on those performing their jobs (often voluntarily) as best as they can with the limited resources available is completely unacceptable.
GWil
11/06/2013
9:58:28 AM
On 11/06/2013 Superstu wrote:
>Gwil took offense and I took to bad humour to display disgust at the original
>offering from the family to continue the search - in the form of a reality-TV-style
>bounty to find him alive (but if you search all month and turn up nothing
>or worse a lifeless body, then bzzzz you lose no prizes for you).

Thanks Stu. Said with more tact and diplomacy than I could muster.


On 7/06/2013 martym wrote:
>>I'd go back and delete all my reckless, disgusting posts.

I appreciate that we differ on this, but won't shy away from my thoughts. People are able to try to rally support. I agree that people should go to all reasonable (and then some) lengths to save a family member. However, I think there is something really wrong about any group who rubbishes the efforts made by Search and Rescue personnel, dumps on the police and ignores the requests of our expert groups to not incite vigilante-style independent SAR. It's crazy. If the police *hadn't* done anything, or if there was a realistic hope of recovery, I wouldn't feel this way. If they'd poured resources into assisting -- rather than competing with -- the police, I'd be supportive. But they haven't.
Wendy
11/06/2013
10:07:42 AM
On 10/06/2013 newclimber wrote:

>
>He is a master corporal from the military and has been trained in such
>conditions
>so the family believes he could be alive.

I don't get how you can say australian police and s/r aren't good enough at their jobs, but a canadian corporal who appears to have ignored any training he might have had that would have suggested being better prepared and having an emergency plan and backup would be OK out there? I don't see a lot of training reflected in going off into an unfamiliar alpine area unprepared. I am very cynical of claims that he is well trained and could have survived given what we know of the situation. And since when have tweets been a reliable source of information? A distressed family tweets that not enough is being done for their son - well in the circumstances, nothing could have been enough to alleviate their distress.

Have the rescue effort been the best possible without any faults? Probably not. Would any rescue effort have been? Probably not. Have they nevertheless appeared to make a more than reasonable, multifaceted, resource intensive search far beyond what a few people on the ground could do? Well, yes.
GWil
11/06/2013
3:19:37 PM
On 11/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>I'll wager $100 that you cannot provide evidence of any S&R, police or
>similar expert requesting the family "not to incite vigilante-style independent
>SAR".

Sorry Cliff, but I'll disagree. Aside from the original reward ($15,000) being withdrawn the same week as it was first posted, in line with request from "the authorities" (and then backed up by the sister, Mandeep Srawn), the NSW Police Superintendent (Shane Box, if you want to Google his comments) has come out on several occasions and warned against individuals conducting their own searches.

I think the my reaction has been sustained based on the opening lines from the reward posting, and the direct implications given:
"Find Prabh... get $15,000. Easiest money you’ll make hikers!"

Now, I'll admit that the wording has since been tidied up a little, but the sentiment remains the same in my eyes. It directly implies that untrained, and non-cohesive hikers/outdoorsmen will do a better job of searching for and successfully recovering a missing person than the recognised and official search force. It's a slap in the face for the efforts made by the NSW police, SAR groups, NSW Parks & Wildlife, SES, etc and I believe can easily be described as vigilante-style. Gung-ho, outside the law. The Police have acknowledged that they've got no way to stop people doing it, but they've not made a secret of the fact they disapprove.

Again, any situation of missing/presumed dead is horrible and heart-breaking. I've seen it enough before. But I still hate to see this kind of action. Not to say that some part of me doesn't understand it, but I cannot and do not condone it.
gfdonc
11/06/2013
3:52:16 PM
On 11/06/2013 GWil wrote:
>Now, I'll admit that the wording has since been tidied up a little, but
>the sentiment remains the same in my eyes. It directly implies that untrained,
>and non-cohesive hikers/outdoorsmen will do a better job of searching for
>and successfully recovering a missing person than the recognised and official
>search force. It's a slap in the face for the efforts made by the NSW
>police, SAR groups, NSW Parks & Wildlife, SES, etc and I believe can easily
>be described as vigilante-style. Gung-ho, outside the law. The Police
>have acknowledged that they've got no way to stop people doing it, but
>they've not made a secret of the fact they disapprove.

Whoa, several unsubstantiated allegations there IMHO.
"a better job" - not necessarily but I think the family believes that any extra effort may make a difference. Surely you have more chance of finding someone if there are 300 people looking instead of 30?

"Gung-ho, outside the law". Outside what law? I note the posting asks searchers to register themselves.

I think this is a concerned family trying to do anything they can to maximise the chances of finding him. Good luck to them.
GWil
11/06/2013
4:20:16 PM
On 11/06/2013 gfdonc wrote:
>Whoa, several unsubstantiated allegations there IMHO.

The paragraph you highlighted was opened with a comment marking it as my opinion, hence the lack of citations. Fair enough; you disagree. I was attempting to use "the law" in the context of "the police", but such an argument seems a little trivial.
GWil
11/06/2013
4:34:13 PM
On 11/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>GWil
>
>In what way did the family incite others to take law enforcement into
>their own hands (i.e., vigilantism) as you claim?
>
>EDIT
>
>No trivial matter.

In context, the wording that triggered this foray into linguistic precision was apparently "vigilante-style independent SAR".

You really don't understand what I was trying to say?

Fine.

Vigilante: (n) A member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority. [Source: Google]

The suffix "-style" denotes a similarity to, without a direct and literal application of the entirety of the meaning. In this instance, the immediate following words set the context: "independent SAR".

From this, it should be obvious that the author intends the statement to reflect the clause to relate to: A member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake independent SAR in their community without legal authority.

If it wasn't, please apply the above contextualisation to my earlier comment. And again, we disagree. Arguing semantics over noun/verb usage in the broader context of whether it's appropriate to act against the advice of the police does seem trivial to me. I accept that you don't, and will endeavour to ensure that my nouns are more categorically obvious in future.
GWil
11/06/2013
5:10:49 PM
On 11/06/2013 Cliff wrote:
>Do you have a personal beef against the family?

Nope. I interpret their actions to reflect a position that I vehemently disagree with. I accept that you interpret them differently. I think our points have been fairly well thrashed out though.

>FWIW, I'd do everything I could within the broad scope of what might seem reasonable to find a loved one missing, including offering a reward and stipend to attract who I would consider appropriate searchers.

Noted. I hope you never have to do it, though.
martym
12/06/2013
12:07:25 AM
On 11/06/2013 GWil wrote:
>On 7/06/2013 martym wrote:
>>>I'd go back and delete all my reckless, disgusting posts.
>
>I appreciate that we differ on this, but won't shy away from my thoughts.
> People are able to try to rally support. I agree that people should go
>to all reasonable (and then some) lengths to save a family member. However,
>I think there is something really wrong about any group who rubbishes the
>efforts made by Search and Rescue personnel, dumps on the police and ignores
>the requests of our expert groups to not incite vigilante-style independent
>SAR. It's crazy. If the police *hadn't* done anything, or if there was
>a realistic hope of recovery, I wouldn't feel this way. If they'd poured
>resources into assisting -- rather than competing with -- the police, I'd
>be supportive. But they haven't.

Who are you GWil - really? What's your agenda?

For the record - I have a friend who was up there, haven't spoken to him yet about the search, but I know lots of people in the BWRS and have a real respect for what they do. One awful thing is knowing that you're potentially looking for a body rather than a lost hiker, but they still go and do it.
I admit I haven't really followed this story & don't have a facebook account - and when i saw the forum-topic, I thought it was phishing!
But that means I'm sorta able to see it from both points of view: desperate family wants their son back, will do what ever it takes. As many others (including GWil) have said in this forum - I'd probably do something similar, what's a life worth?

Interestingly - the OP hasn't surfaced to defend their cause. Just increasing the SEO hey?
Or maybe they were appalled at the Chockstone spray...
FatCanyoner
19/06/2013
10:36:19 AM
Really interesting blog post by a SAR bloke from Canada criticising the family's reward and amateur search.

http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2013/06/on-posting-rewards/

His conclusion:

"Posting the reward has only done one thing; it has ensured that other families like those of Prabhdeep Srawn are facing the possibility of a lost or deceased loved one."

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
19/06/2013
11:06:23 AM
On 19/06/2013 FatCanyoner wrote:
>Really interesting blog post by a SAR bloke from Canada criticising the
>family's reward and amateur search.
>
>http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2013/06/on-posting-rewards/
>
>His conclusion:
>
>"Posting the reward has only done one thing; it has ensured that other
>families like those of Prabhdeep Srawn are facing the possibility of a
>lost or deceased loved one."

... because;
In one case, a group of Canadian soldiers who have no knowledge of the terrain, flora or fauna are flying to Australia to help. In the other case, locals from all over the region are converging on what is clearly a hazardous area. There is no central coordination, there is no communications network. There’s no air support. There’s no way to tell what level of skill they have. These are amateurs, some well meaning and others motivated by money.


Regardless of outcome, it would appear that the reward offered by the family is having the desired effect in their mind.
If the worst happens, I wonder if their empathy extends to others who may find themselves in the same situation, partly because of their 'incentivisation' (thanks J Howard!), of circumstances?

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 50
There are 50 messages in this topic.

 

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