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Chockstone Forum - Trip Reports

Tells Us About Your Latest Trip!

 Page 3 of 6. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 102
Author
TR - Point Perp multipitch sport

ajfclark
8/05/2013
12:44:55 PM
On 8/05/2013 Nick Clow wrote:
>One of my pet hates on CS is people who cut and paste the whole (or a large portion) of someone else's preceding message and then simply go through it and insert their own comments. Every one can see the previous messages on the thread. It shows a distinct lack of imagination, in my view.

It's not always clear exactly what you're responding to in a thread. While you might click reply on a comment 3 pages ago it is not always apparent that you've done this unless the reader checks in thread view or the poster quotes the posts they are responding to.

Even when it's the most recent post, if you want to respond to a variety of statements in someone's post, quoting it and inserting replies is the most useful way of doing it. It's less onerous on the reader and especially useful when people then change their posts after you've replied to them.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
12:47:21 PM
(Thread hijack start).
On 8/05/2013 Nick Clow wrote:
>One of my pet hates on CS is people who cut and paste the whole (or a
>large portion) of someone else's preceding message and then simply go through
>it and insert their own comments. Every one can see the previous messages
>on the thread. It shows a distinct lack of imagination, in my view.

Probably a lack of imagination but sometimes justified, as one of my pet hates on CS is people who delete their posts some time down the track leaving replies to earlier posts making no sense unless enough of the original is quoted in the reply.
Also, from a sheer convenience point of view, if replying to a post on a previous page* of a thread, it is much easier to read the previous post within the reply as made on the next page.
(*As was your post in this case!)
(End thread hijack).



>Is it too much to ask that sport climbers leave this area alone or work
>within the guidelines for bolting? If you want to go sport climbing isn't
>there enough for you in the whole of Nowra? Some people are grossly offended
>by lines of ring-bolts at a trad area and the dumbing down of the game
>to the lowest common denominator. Where have they got to go?
>
+1
Any addition of sport climbs to Point Perpendicular detracts from the wholistic flavour of the place.
No matter how good the potential 'sport' line/s, I would prefer to see them forgone in favour of retaining future challenge for climbing in as close a natural state as possible at this predominantly adventure area.

nmonteith earlier wrote;
>No Damo, that was the other 9 new routes I did - which I suspect will get no repeats. I bolted this one for the other 10%, and to match the other well bolted routes in the area.

10% of climbers have a warped sense of adventure?

Post edit:
~> I seem to be having a repeat ajf day! Note to self; get faster at typing, or become less verbose!!
Heh, heh, heh.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
12:56:42 PM
.
Reserving this space ahead of ajf!
~> OK, now I can type in slow pace peace. Heh, heh, heh.

On 8/05/2013 Superstu wrote:
>Plenty of great "real" climbing left to do around the place; just you
>won't read the spray about it here on chockstone.
>
>In hindsight it was inevitable the sport pox at nowra would spread to
>the point; what held it back for so long was probably the guidebook situation.
>
>I feel torn these days between my obsessive-compulsive desire to document
>every crag, climb and hold for posterity (and to help others discover cool
>places), and the realisation that the best climbing left is at the most
>obscure places with the least information available. The most valuable
>part of my climbing kit these days is a manky cardboard box full of scrappy
>old guides and bits of paper for crags long forgotten. Fire-side conversation
>and loose tongues at the pub are the best guidebook now.

An interesting comment that I resonate with.
Yes, guidebooks by default point out the undeveloped areas, but in relation to the Nowra sport-pox, I would suggest that the reason for slow sport-development at a hitherto (and hopefully ongoing), trad area, was actually more attached to readership demographic.
It appears that the next generation of climbers is finally outnumbering the remaining historical ethic/precedent climbers?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
1:05:05 PM
On 8/05/2013 Batey wrote:
>Every time one of these discussions start an area looses some charm.
>I hate to say it but im waiting for the time when someone starts grid
>bolting up in the Wolgan.

Waiting with a dirty great stilson wrench or angle grinder?

grantoss
8/05/2013
1:05:22 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>Or climb these bolted routes and place gear.

You've posted this same suggestion in other threads..... its not getting any less stupid

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
1:07:42 PM
On 8/05/2013 grantoss wrote:
>On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>>Or climb these bolted routes and place gear.
>
>You've posted this same suggestion in other threads..... its not getting
>any less stupid

+1

hangdog
8/05/2013
1:21:42 PM
On 8/05/2013 grantoss wrote:

>
>You've posted this same suggestion in other threads..... its not getting
>any less stupid

Your opinion obviously but i am still waiting for the previous route to be climbed without the bolts being clipped. I bet that you haven't or wont climb these routes in a trad style anyway.
There is never going to be a mass of bolted routes down there and it is even more unlikely that there will a mass of trad lines lines taking there place. Because as usual the people who complain most about the bolts don't have the googs to either bolt routes or create trad lines.
Now in saying that i put myself in the category of not being bothered to create these climbs and i admire/support the people who do. I also agree that bolting for bolting sake is not a good thing and bolts shouldn't be placed next to trad placements.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
1:28:17 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>Or climb these bolted routes and place gear.
>On 8/05/2013 grantoss wrote:
>>You've posted this same suggestion in other threads..... its not getting
>>any less stupid
>
>Your opinion obviously but i am still waiting for the previous route to
>be climbed without the bolts being clipped. I bet that you haven't or
>wont climb these routes in a trad style anyway.
>There is never going to be a mass of bolted routes down there and it is
>even more unlikely that there will a mass of trad lines lines taking there
>place. Because as usual the people who complain most about the bolts don't
>have the googs to either bolt routes or create trad lines.
> Now in saying that i put myself in the category of not being bothered
>to create these climbs and i admire/support the people who do. I also agree
>that bolting for bolting sake is not a good thing and bolts shouldn't be
>placed next to trad placements.

It appears that we are not so far apart in ideology as I first thought.

I would suggest that a sufficiently long timeframe might even see this adventure area go beyond the trad ethic to a soloists only ethic(!), ... as climbing continues to develop.
Yeah, yeah, sport seems to be the flavour of the day and trad was before, but who knows what the future holds?
I am in the camp of not limiting the future ascentionists their right to trend climbing back into the adventure that gives the most return for effort in the game we play.

If the adventure group concedes too much ground now then I reckon it is indeed likely that there will be a mass of bolted routes there.

What is with this googs to put up routes?
Abseil bolting doesn't require googs in my opinion, and trading requires the develo[pment of ability/skills & numbers to establish the lines. The likes of the Cossey bro's (etc), would likely do it easily in today's climate, but unfortunately those lads are a minority in trad terms at the moment.


Post edit:
An interesting corollary is that those capable of high number grades are not the only ones with a handle on adventure...
Damo666
8/05/2013
1:37:44 PM
On 8/05/2013 james wrote:

>If this amazing trad line is so fking obvious then why hasn't anyone else
>climbed & written it up? Too busy with inane whinging on the 'net?
>

The idea that just because a natural line has not yet been climbed trad then it is fine to bolt it is nonsensical and the kind of lame myopia that is at the root of these problems.

Maybe someone had their eye on it but knew they couldn't do it on natural gear themselves so left it for someone who could, recognising that they are not the only climbers in the world and that their shallow, selfish urges should not be forced onto either the rock or the many better climbers who will visit the area after them?

Or maybe they just left it, for whatever reason, because they don't *need* a reason to not glue lots of steel onto rocks? It's the climbing equivalent of the Null Hypothesis - the natural state of the rock is without bolts, so a bolter should justify why it should be changed (ie bolted) rather than someone else needing to justify why it should be left as is. It's the one proposing artificial modification in the name of convenience that needs to justify their position, not the person advocating leaving the rock in its natural state. In some places some of that modification is justified and acceptable to all, in some places, like Point Perp, maybe not.

Or maybe no one ever saw the natural line, astoundingly they missed that vast 15m swathe of untouched Australian sea cliff, stretching off into the distance for, er... 15m? Which still does not make it automatically OK to bolt it.

'Inane whinging on the 'net'? Your 1997-era insult of internet climbing forums is funny, but whether you like it or not, internet forums now constitute a useful and valuable community forum for climbers to discuss issues, gauge opinion and make plans. See the latest (May) issue of Climb mag for a good piece by Neil Gresham on cheating and how a long and argumentative internet forum thread (UKC) worked the issue out.

That's not to say some inane whinging doesn't go on, but writing off an exchange because you don't agree with one side, or obviously don't understand the broader / deeper context of the issue, is just stupid and gets us nowhere. If you've got an argument - either way - then say it. But glib ridicule devoid of content only makes the author look bad.

hangdog
8/05/2013
1:44:07 PM
I am going to go out on a limb here.
But i bet NOBODY who has called my comments stupid or +1 them will climb those routes without the bolts or create new trad routes in their place.
I will even help you chop the bolts if you do climb the route in the traditional style and feel the bolts are not in keeping with holistic nature of the crag.
I reckon my offer will be as safe as my cash is from the last offer.
BTW For those people who don't get it. I don't believe in superfluous bolting and especially next to trad placements.
I thought those new lines looked really cool too hard for me bolted or trad.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
1:46:55 PM
On 8/05/2013 Damo666 wrote:
A spot on post.
gfdonc
8/05/2013
1:49:12 PM
Route looks nice Neil. Wish I was good enough to climb it.
Amen.

(& ps nice shots 'for a Canon')

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
1:49:15 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>I am going to go out on a limb here.
> But i bet NOBODY who has called my comments stupid or +1 them will
>climb those routes without the bolts or create new trad routes in their
>place.
>I will even help you chop the bolts if you do climb the route in the traditional
>style and feel the bolts are not in keeping with holistic nature of the
>crag.
>I reckon my offer will be as safe as my cash is from the last offer.
>
>BTW For those people who don't get it. I don't believe in superfluous
>bolting and especially next to trad placements.
>I thought those new lines looked really cool too hard for me bolted or
>trad.

What has my meagre climbing grade got to do with whether it is right or not to rob the future?

hangdog
8/05/2013
2:04:21 PM
There are plenty of routes for the future down there. Looking at the pics again i don't think Neil's was the obvious natural line anyway. Certainly a direct line but it seems to leave the natural lines alone. So the natural line is still there for the future.
It would be nice if the more obvious lines could be trad protected and go up to 21ish. Then I might stand a chance.
One Day Hero
8/05/2013
2:23:28 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>BTW For those people who don't get it. I don't believe in superfluous
>bolting and especially next to trad placements.

That's most of what we're asking for down there mate. Now, the tricky bit is getting them to listen.

grantoss
8/05/2013
2:23:51 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>I am going to go out on a limb here.
> But i bet NOBODY who has called my comments stupid or +1 them will
>climb those routes without the bolts or create new trad routes in their
>place.
>I will even help you chop the bolts if you do climb the route in the traditional
>style and feel the bolts are not in keeping with holistic nature of the
>crag.
>I reckon my offer will be as safe as my cash is from the last offer.
>
>BTW For those people who don't get it. I don't believe in superfluous
>bolting and especially next to trad placements.
>I thought those new lines looked really cool too hard for me bolted or
>trad.

My comment was specifically relating to your suggestion to climb the routes ignoring the bolts and instead placing gear, having optional bolts changes the game.

There are plenty of folks out there capable of smashing gr 25 + mixed/trad routes.....whether or not I can is beside the point

The good Dr
8/05/2013
2:32:02 PM
As usual there is a lot of conjecture and position taking without any accurate information. Has anyone had a serious look at these walls prior to Niel establishing these routes? Can anyone confirm that bolts have been placed next to gear placements, or that the routes would be climbable on gear alone, or as suitable mixed routes? Until then all the finely honed arguments and counter-arguments (cough) are all Bullsh.

The endless posturing about these issues is frankly sad and is severely compromised by the obvious hypocrisy of peoples actions on one hand and inaction on another. Of course if they start enacting their so called philosophies I would propose that they start with the compromised climbs established by close friends first and complete that task before spreading the actions wider. This will prove commitment to the cause and demonstrate that it is not just some perverse personality conflict or a course of action without significant personal ramifications.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/05/2013
2:33:42 PM
On 8/05/2013 The good Dr wrote:
>As usual there is a lot of conjecture and position taking without any accurate
>information. Has anyone had a serious look at these walls prior to Niel
>establishing these routes? Can anyone confirm that bolts have been placed
>next to gear placements, or that the routes would be climbable on gear
>alone, or as suitable mixed routes? Until then all the finely honed arguments
>and counter-arguments (cough) are all Bullsh.
>
Neil himself said in the original post on this thread;
>
There was only a short 2m section of crack in the top pitch that gave me a smug sense of satisfaction when I sunk a bolt nearby. I could have made the route a mixed route in places (snip).


On 8/05/2013 The good Dr continued;
>The endless posturing about these issues is frankly sad and is severely
>compromised by the obvious hypocrisy of peoples actions on one hand and
>inaction on another. Of course if they start enacting their so called philosophies
>I would propose that they start with the compromised climbs established
>by close friends first and complete that task before spreading the actions
>wider. This will prove commitment to the cause and demonstrate that it
>is not just some perverse personality conflict or a course of action without
>significant personal ramifications.

You obviously do not know who are members of Dangerouser Cliffs or the commitment they have to the cause.
The membership is probably greater than you would believe, and growing all the time...
uwhp510
8/05/2013
2:40:04 PM
On 8/05/2013 hangdog wrote:
>My answer again is if
>you don't like it then go develop new trad routes.

Are you seriously saying that in your view, the only legitimate way to prevent trad areas like the point from turning into sport cliffs is to cover them in trad routes? You can't call dibs on an entire crag by grid.... nut(?)ing it.

In any case, almost all of the new uninspiring, forgettable (and lets not forget overgraded) filler that popped up at windjammer doesn't even go to the top of the cliff, which is the ONLY reason that it wasn't done in the 80s-90s. If it didn't top out (apart from that one weird 22 that NEVER got done) it wasn't considered a route.
james
8/05/2013
2:41:21 PM
can you see these routes from any nearby trad routes? Has ANYONE actually gone to look? Are these actually viable trad routes? Or have you all just been suckered by Neil's cleverly crafted trolling session?

edit: the Dr beat me to it.

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