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TR: Alive in a Bitter Sea (Katoomba Cliffs)

WarwickB

14-Dec-2016
7:12:45 AM

On 13/12/2016 simey wrote:
>That sounds good Warwick. You establish some more headpoint wank routes
>and I will come up and retro Alive in a Bitter Sea.
>
So, if I go and put up new routes, inspecting, rapping, and bolting them on rap, you will go and screw over an entirely different route contrary to the wishes of the person who did the first ascent? That's dictatorial, alt-right, bullying, and thuggery. Something I reject completely. As you might imagine, I don't respond well to being bullied and dictated to by some git I hardly know about something I've been doing for over 40 years, and which is important to me - climbing.

A response like yours could well result in an epidemic of bolt chopping across the country as people return the rock everywhere to its natural condition so routes may be climbed from the ground up, or not at all.

>But I do agree that I have made my point (although I reckon my approach
>of rap bolting for the majority leans more to the left whilst yours is
>far right).
>
>What I am more amazed about is that Macca hasn't mentioned Shai-Hulud
>in this thread once.
>
>
>

rowan

14-Dec-2016
7:45:36 AM

On 12/12/2016 simey wrote:

>I haven't done The Dreaming (23), but I have done Substance Abuse (24)
>next door which I thought was a great route route. Both routes were established
>by Ferret (Ian Anger), so I am guessing they are bolted in a similar vein.
>To quote from the Buffalo guide, "Ian was one of the original visionaries
>who, in the 80s, introduced the quaint idea of good quality, reasonably
>spaced bolts".
>
>I understand that the first pitch of The Dreaming at grade 21 is a bit
>run-out and I occasionally have heard of good climbers getting a bit scared
>on it. But I also know some pretty average climbers who have led it fine.
>It is obviously a pitch that requires one to be feeling solid in their
>slab climbing technique before launching up it. Given the number of ascents
>it has had, it is obviously a route that appeals to competent slab climbers
>but without being bolted for the lowest common denominator.
>
>Overall it looks and sounds great. I just need to get my shit together
>to lead it, but at least rapping and working the moves from above aren't
>considered a pre-requisite before jumping on it.
>
>
I'm sure they are similar. The point being is it is a style not everyone would be comfortable with. I think it is a sliding scale is all. And deciding at what point of grey black turns to white is always different for different people. I personally see Warwick's routes as a challenge to do ground up still. There are not many routes like that around for the opportunity of that experience. Even to go up and back off. Some of the best climbing experiences don't always result in success. It really is something for me to aspire to. To be able to read the wall well enough to take myself up and decide when to call it or continue.

The Blue Mountains have oodles of clip ups. Warwick's routes don't take up much space. I would hate to see routes like that retroed for the dumbing down of the experience.

But... you know. Climbing has no real rules. People can add bolts, people can chop bolts out. people can chip new holds or fill holds in. I think leaving routes of every style would be a good thing though.

rowan

14-Dec-2016
7:59:24 AM

On 14/12/2016 WarwickB wrote:
>On 13/12/2016 simey wrote:
>>That sounds good Warwick. You establish some more headpoint wank routes
>>and I will come up and retro Alive in a Bitter Sea.
>>
>So, if I go and put up new routes, inspecting, rapping, and bolting them
>on rap, you will go and screw over an entirely different route contrary
>to the wishes of the person who did the first ascent? That's dictatorial,
>alt-right, bullying, and thuggery. Something I reject completely. As you
>might imagine, I don't respond well to being bullied and dictated to by
>some git I hardly know about something I've been doing for over 40 years,
>and which is important to me - climbing.
>
>A response like yours could well result in an epidemic of bolt chopping
>across the country as people return the rock everywhere to its natural
>condition so routes may be climbed from the ground up, or not at all.
>

I don't think it would be dictatorial. Simey hasn't reached dictator status yet. I would consider it more anarchistic. I think the person who did the first ascent always deciding what happens to a piece of rock afterwards is a bit colonialistic.

All the same, I hope the routes don't change.

simey

14-Dec-2016
11:08:14 AM

On 14/12/2016 rowan wrote:
>...Climbing has no real rules. People can add bolts, people
>can chop bolts out. people can chip new holds or fill holds in. I think
>leaving routes of every style would be a good thing though.

Climbing does have self-imposed rules/ethics which most climbers respect to some degree. Most of those things you mentioned would incur the wrath of the climbing community because they do directly influence the experience of other climbers.

Warwick was pretty quick to remind me of another rule/ethic when I mentioned the idea of retro-bolting Alive in a Bitter Sea. And that is, you generally respect the way a route was established and you don't alter it down the track.

However I struggle with that one, particularly if someone plays the bold card on a new route in a dubious manner.

That is why I liked your line…
> I think the person who did the first ascent always deciding what happens to a piece of rock afterwards is a bit colonialist.

Anyway thanks for the recent input by yourself and Mikl. Good to read some other perspectives.

WarwickB

14-Dec-2016
12:13:33 PM

On 14/12/2016 simey wrote:
>On 14/12/2016 rowan wrote:
>>...Climbing has no real rules. People can add bolts, people
>>can chop bolts out. people can chip new holds or fill holds in. I think
>>leaving routes of every style would be a good thing though.
>
>Climbing does have self-imposed rules/ethics which most climbers respect
>to some degree. Most of those things you mentioned would incur the wrath
>of the climbing community because they do directly influence the experience
>of other climbers.
>
>Warwick was pretty quick to remind me of another rule/ethic when I mentioned
>the idea of retro-bolting Alive in a Bitter Sea. And that is, you generally
>respect the way a route was established and you don't alter it down the
>track.
>
>However I struggle with that one, particularly if someone plays the bold
>card on a new route in a dubious manner.
>
There just isn't anything remotely dubious about it.

>That is why I liked your line…
>> I think the person who did the first ascent always deciding what happens
>to a piece of rock afterwards is a bit colonialist.
>
In my view colonialism would more correctly refer to coming after the first (original) ascent and imposing another order. In principle I'm in favour of consultation about these matters with the person making the first ascent which is what I've stressed in my earlier posts. There may well be legitimate reasons, which are agreed upon by all, to make changes to the protection on a route. Keep in mind it works all ways and endless rounds of re-engineering the protection on routes is in no-one's interests.

It's been a vibrant discussion, and as Simon says, good to read many different views.

>Anyway thanks for the recent input by yourself and Mikl. Good to read
>some other perspectives.
>
>
>

simey

14-Dec-2016
1:01:52 PM

On 14/12/2016 WarwickB wrote:
>In my view colonialism would more correctly refer to coming after the
>first (original) ascent and imposing another order.

That is a better application of the term.

>In principle I'm in favour of consultation about these matters with the person making the first
>ascent which is what I've stressed in my earlier posts. There may well
>be legitimate reasons, which are agreed upon by all, to make changes to
>the protection on a route. Keep in mind it works all ways and endless rounds
>of re-engineering the protection on routes is in no-one's interests.

Fair enough.

technogeekery

14-Dec-2016
1:12:57 PM

Yay, they kissed and made up.

I'm always interested in these kinds of ethical or stylistic debates, even if they are quite academic to someone of my limited climbing ability. Its interesting to see how the body of people who call themselves climbers has changed over the decades, and how few "climbers" today give a rats about this kind of argument - they have no interest in this kind of climbing.

Anyway, enough hijacking - thanks for another great trip report, and one that has sparked some lively debate, unearthed a couple of climbosaurs and given some great insight into our local climbing history!


Nmonteith

14-Dec-2016
6:31:54 PM

FYI there is a decade old ringbolted sport route straight up the wall 10m left of Alive in the Bitter Sea. It still doesn't seem to get any traffic. Probably because it appears to be an abandonded project. And no, you can see the bolts from the 3 Sisters lookout.

One Day Hero

14-Dec-2016
7:51:30 PM

On 14/12/2016 simey wrote:
>That is why I liked your line…
>> I think the person who did the first ascent always deciding what happens
>to a piece of rock afterwards is a bit colonialist.

I think you're stuck in the 90's, Simey. The climbing world has dramatically changed, and you're tilting at windmills which have long since stopped spinning.

Colonialism is the perfect word for what has happened at Point Perp in the last five years. Dozens of sport routes have been shoved in between, hard up against, and directly on top of existing trad and mixed routes, with complete disregard for the original style of the cliff.

The Blue Mountains are getting grid bolted with a hundred new (mostly mediocre) sport routes every year.

Araps is having totally redundant protection and loweroff retrobolts bunged in at an alarming rate. And you have a massive sook about two frigging routes from the 80's which aren't safe for onsite ground up ascents?

Fark, even Father O (your finest contribution to climbing, i.m.o.) had a pretty shitty re/retrobolt job done recently.

Get your priorities sorted. There's a lot of bolting crimes which I'd love to remedy, and the Katoomba cliff scary routes don't make the list.

simey

14-Dec-2016
9:47:12 PM

On 14/12/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>I think you're stuck in the 90's, Simey. The climbing world has dramatically
>changed, and you're tilting at windmills which have long since stopped
>spinning.

I was just getting something out of my system from 25 years ago.

In 25 years you will probably still be banging on about bolted squeeze jobs at Point Perp (not that I disagree with you).

As for all that other stuff, well I acknowledge change in climbing, so I don't think that I am stuck in the past. Finding that balance though is always going to see some clashes. Conflict however is particularly difficult for sensitive souls like you and I.

>Fark, even Father O (your finest contribution to climbing, i.m.o.) had
>a pretty shitty re/retrobolt job done recently.

I should have taken responsibility for replacing the bolts on my own route. But I will happily complain about a shitty rebolt on other Taipan Wall classics.

>Get your priorities sorted. There's a lot of bolting crimes which I'd
>love to remedy, and the Katoomba cliff scary routes don't make the list.

We should form an alliance. Need to come up with a catchy name or acronym. Can you see if Wallwombat and Doug want to join too?

PThomson

16-Dec-2016
10:19:18 PM

Nmonteith -

While Duncan and Dan's project next to Bitter Sea IS on ringbolts, but it's a LONG way from being a sport route. It has about 10 bolts over the 70m length, the rest of which is on gear, with climbing on the sections that have been freed purportedly in the 26+ category (and the rest of it STILL a Project, which might be indicative of its difficulty). Harder climbing on a less trafficked route with similar runouts still sounds very much like a Headpoint Route to me.

Secondly, while the bolts may NOT be visible from Honeymoon Point, I personally was buzzed by 3 drones operated from the Echo Point viewing platform, and observed 2 more being launched when I was above the route. Though obviously a substantially smaller proportion of tourists can see the wall, any actions taken on that wall (with respect to retro-ing, modifying, etc) ARE still potentially visible, and from a closer range. Furthermore, since the drones operate GoPro's, the -relatively- close-up footage of any in situ equipment on that wall is more permanent and more likely to be distributed.

My point being that I believe that any actions taken on that wall need to be done discretely, and with the goal of NOT drawing awareness to our presence in the area. I did my bolting and grinding at night for that reason. Extreme? Maybe... But *I'm* not going to be the one to get climbing banned in a sensitive area.

-Paul

widewetandslippery

16-Dec-2016
10:35:34 PM

drones = orange gun


wallwombat

16-Dec-2016
11:27:48 PM

On 14/12/2016 One Day Hero wrote:

>I think you're stuck in the 90's, Simey.

No shit. Sherlock?


ajfclark

17-Dec-2016
8:50:16 AM

On 16/12/2016 PThomson wrote:
>My point being that I believe that any actions taken on that wall need to be done discretely, and with the goal of NOT drawing awareness to our presence in the area. I did my bolting and grinding at night for that reason. Extreme? Maybe... But *I'm* not going to be the one to get climbing banned in a sensitive area.

And then posted about it on a public forum on the internet? Super discrete.


pmonks

17-Dec-2016
9:20:23 AM

On 17/12/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>And then posted about it on a public forum on the internet? Super discrete.

I mean I love Chockstone as much as the next 150kg couch potato web surfer who calls himself a climber, but I think you might be overselling its prominence just a tad...

PThomson

17-Dec-2016
9:58:40 AM

On 17/12/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>And then posted about it on a public forum on the internet? Super discrete.

It's hilarious how, in your head (for some strange reason), there's an equivalency between "Angle grinding and drilling within 30 metres of the most visited lookout in all of Australia, while in full view of the public" and "discussing how best to manage sensitive issues on an obscure rock-climbing forum".


ajfclark

17-Dec-2016
3:44:26 PM

I just thought it was funny that on one hand you were being all cloak and dagger and on the other you weren't. To me, this is also full view of the public, yes. Not as wide a range as the lookout, but still public.

widewetandslippery

17-Dec-2016
3:53:28 PM

for what its worth if you can,t find your own 100m orange wall in the mountains that has grade 20 to 30 routes on it you aren,t trying.


tnd

19-Dec-2016
1:03:52 PM

People should stop using "discrete" when they mean "discreet".

Pthomson

19-Dec-2016
4:12:40 PM

On 19/12/2016 tnd wrote:
>People should stop using "discrete" when they mean "discreet".
>

huh... You're right. I honestly didn't realise:

discrete
dɪˈskriːt/
adjective
adjective: discrete

Individually separate and distinct.

existed.

I'm now edumicated.

- Paul T

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