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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Trip Reports

Tells Us About Your Latest Trip!

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 82
Author
TR: Alive in a Bitter Sea (Katoomba Cliffs)

Macciza
10-Dec-2016
7:56:42 PM
On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:
>
> It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>
Well, Nobody!, when you get around to climbing them . . . Which often isn't 'easy' ....
How many have you put up? Or which ones have you climbed??

Once something is climbed and gets a grade it is open to people to go ground up and improve FA style. Regardless of whether it was rap inspected, or runout or whatever, they have the benefit of a grade and possibly some other beta (if that's allowable) - the FA simply misses out on the onsight possibility ... sure it's a sacrifice but they take it for the team ...


simey
11-Dec-2016
12:32:14 AM
On 10/12/2016 Macciza wrote:
>On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:
>>
>> It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>>
>Well, Nobody!, when you get around to climbing them . . . Which often
>isn't 'easy' ....
>How many have you put up? Or which ones have you climbed??

I've done enough climbing of all sorts of styles to have some idea of what I am talking about... and a handful of new routes in a variety of styles that more than likely shit all over anything you have established Macca.
>
>.... the FA simply misses out on the onsight
>possibility ... sure it's a sacrifice but they take it for the team ...

What a crock.

wallwombat
11-Dec-2016
2:56:59 AM
This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest, instigated by the two big bitchy repeaters;

ODH and Simey are just like those fat painful food critics on Masterchef or MKR or whatever,

Or those two old muppets sitting up in the top row and complaining about everything.

Nothing to contribute besides sour grapes.

Doug
11-Dec-2016
6:20:26 AM
On 11/12/2016 wallwombat wrote:
>This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat
>of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful
>comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest ...

+1
widewetandslippery
11-Dec-2016
8:16:43 AM
I agree, i fractured my skull again yesterday so no bushwalking, go for a boulder intsead.
Wendy
11-Dec-2016
9:25:22 AM
I'm generally in the school that thinks headpointing is a wank, but it doesn't sound like Warrick's first ascents are typical of the amount of inspection and practice that goes into making me think that headpointing is a pointless guesture. Sure, going completely ground up is a step further into committing to the unknown, but plenty of routes get a quick glance, clean or the odd bolt put in rapping in to a first ascent. It is still rather different to a really worked headpoint and i would imagine there were plenty of places on the route where he was well into unexplored territory. I'd criticise plenty of other wanky first ascents more.

The Blueys are full of similar walls that are bolted all over, I'm not sure that the world is really missing out that this one isn't. If it wasn't getting any ascents and didn't mean anything to Warrick to have it retroed, i'd say retroing was reasonable, but it does matter to him and it probably will get bugger all future ascents, but that's not the end of the world.


The statements I think are most preposterous on this thread are actually

>If FA's aren't prepared to at least run it out a little in the easier sections then they really should think twice before creating more overbolted overcautious consumer crap.

>the FA simply misses out on the onsight possibility ... sure it's a sacrifice but they take it for the team ...

Take one for the team???? As an excuse for putting up a head point, that is the most ridiculous one i've heard. And just because someone is bolting a route, there is no reason to laud running it out through easier sections. I think if you are going to the bother of bolting a route, it should be bolted to be safe. Just do the bloody job properly. Having said that, I repeated one of my routes (Brown Thumb) the other day and was cursing my bolt placement. I'd placed it on rap from a good clipping stance, but I'd missed that you actually have to do a shitty move with fiddly gear to get to it. I was strong and well in practice with placing Araps fiddly gear at the time so it didn't bother me, but it hasn't made for a particularly safe lead. I certainly don't mind if someone wants to move that bolt down and left, which is really where I should have placed it, before I get around to it.
One Day Hero
11-Dec-2016
10:54:20 PM
On 11/12/2016 wallwombat wrote:
>This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat
>of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful
>comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest, instigated
>by the two big bitchy repeaters;

Aw gee Wombat, sorry to ruin the love-in but this thing had run its course.

Paul provided so much detail on the route that I feel like I know what the texture is on each individual hold. Warwick chimed in with some interesting and sensible thoughts..........and that's all the real content you're going to get.
>
>ODH and Simey are just like those fat painful food critics on Masterchef
>or MKR or whatever.
>Nothing to contribute besides sour grapes.

Hey, I'm just trying to draw Stuey out so we can get the fireworks started. Yoohoo, how you going Stu? Had enough Sunday night tinnies yet to loosen the fingers up?

Duang Daunk
12-Dec-2016
7:11:20 PM
On 11/12/2016 Wendy wrote:
>most preposterous
>
> >If FA's aren't prepared to at least run it out a little in the easier
> >sections then they really should think twice before creating more
> >overbolted overcautious consumer crap.
>
> just because someone is bolting
>a route, there is no reason to laud running it out through easier sections.
>I think if you are going to the bother of bolting a route, it should be
>bolted to be safe. Just do the bloody job properly.

Safe distance bolting means different things to different peeps sister.
As a classic example I reckon you've provided it below!

>Having said that, I repeated one of my routes (Brown Thumb) the other day and was cursing my
>bolt placement. I'd placed it on rap from a good clipping stance, but I'd
>missed that you actually have to do a shitty move with fiddly gear to get
>to it. I was strong and well in practice with placing Araps fiddly gear
>at the time so it didn't bother me,

Really? It didn't bother you?
So, by that logic when you're old and feeble it should be dumbed down further with a retro?
Defence rests its case your honour.

>but it hasn't made for a particularly safe lead.
> I certainly don't mind if someone wants to move that bolt down
>and left, which is really where I should have placed it, before I get around
>to it.

Would you mind if I safetyized it to the lowest common denominator by halving your closely spaced bolts with a Grollo style retro for noobs now, and me later for when I'm old and feeble?
rowan
12-Dec-2016
9:22:27 PM
On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:

>I am all for the variety of climbing experiences, but I won't deny my
>dislike for contrived boldness. It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>

What is your opinion on The Dreaming at Mount Buffalo? Does it cross the line into contrived boldness? I feel that thing is bolted perfectly. Bolted on abseil but can be safely onsighted. I found it most memorable. One of my favorite routes due to the style.
Wendy
12-Dec-2016
10:05:33 PM
On 12/12/2016 Duang Daunk wrote:

>
>
>Really? It didn't bother you?
>So, by that logic when you're old and feeble it should be dumbed down
>further with a retro?
>Defence rests its case your honour.

I'd cleaned it and top roped before i bolted it, I had a goodly idea of what I was in for, and it was comfortably below my limit and whilst i realised when I went to lead it the bolting wasn't ideal, it was fine for me in the circumstances. Other people had since commented on the bolt being too high. I'm not going to get precious about the route being a head pointing wank. It's already got bolts in it. they may as well be in the best possible places.
>
>>but it hasn't made for a particularly safe lead.
>> I certainly don't mind if someone wants to move that bolt down
>>and left, which is really where I should have placed it, before I get
>around
>>to it.
>
>Would you mind if I safetyized it to the lowest common denominator by
>halving your closely spaced bolts with a Grollo style retro for noobs now,
>and me later for when I'm old and feeble?

Can you do that on a few other routes for me too?
simey
12-Dec-2016
10:20:52 PM
On 12/12/2016 rowan wrote:
>On 10/12/2016 simey wrote:
>
>>I am all for the variety of climbing experiences, but I won't deny my
>>dislike for contrived boldness. It's easy to rap inspect and then bolt
>>scary, run-out routes, but who are you kidding?
>>
>What is your opinion on The Dreaming at Mount Buffalo? Does it cross the
>line into contrived boldness? I feel that thing is bolted perfectly. Bolted
>on abseil but can be safely onsighted. I found it most memorable. One of
>my favorite routes due to the style.

I haven't done The Dreaming (23), but I have done Substance Abuse (24) next door which I thought was a great route route. Both routes were established by Ferret (Ian Anger), so I am guessing they are bolted in a similar vein. To quote from the Buffalo guide, "Ian was one of the original visionaries who, in the 80s, introduced the quaint idea of good quality, reasonably spaced bolts".

I understand that the first pitch of The Dreaming at grade 21 is a bit run-out and I occasionally have heard of good climbers getting a bit scared on it. But I also know some pretty average climbers who have led it fine. It is obviously a pitch that requires one to be feeling solid in their slab climbing technique before launching up it. Given the number of ascents it has had, it is obviously a route that appeals to competent slab climbers but without being bolted for the lowest common denominator.

Overall it looks and sounds great. I just need to get my shit together to lead it, but at least rapping and working the moves from above aren't considered a pre-requisite before jumping on it.

simey
12-Dec-2016
11:49:30 PM
On 11/12/2016 wallwombat wrote:
>This whole thread has changed from a really enjoyable story of a repeat
>of a classic Blue Mountains route, complete with worthwhile and insightful
>comment from the first ascensionist, to a typical bitch-fest, instigated
>by the two big bitchy repeaters;

>Nothing to contribute besides sour grapes.

On 11/12/2016 Doug wrote:
>>+1

So you guys are complaining because I have challenged Warwick's 'insightful' comments. Well you better stop reading now!

Take this paragraph of Warwick's for example...
>In the 80's and 90's one of the things that interested me about climbing was the mental aspect of maintaing a relaxed climbing state in situations that generated a lot of fear i.e. keeping your shit together. Keeping bolting to a minimum allowed me to put up a number of routes where that mental aspect is central. The configuration of the protection, including bolts, is key to the integrity of those routes and the climber's experience of them. I'd like to think these routes remain as they were for other climbers to experience this mental aspect. (Perhaps they might be considered cultural heritage - after all they are in a world heritage park listed on the heritage list for its cultural as well as natural values!).

As reasonable as this reads, putting up your own routes which you rap inspect/bolt first is the least impressive way to play the 'keeping your shit together' game because everything gets worked out on top-rope beforehand.

Warwick's approach is in stark contrast to Jon Muir who was trying to onsight solo Trojan (25) at Mt Arapiles during the same era. Forget sussing it out on a rope, Jon was trying to onsight solo the climb and on a few occasions he downclimbed from above the crux. Although he didn't ultimately succeed, I have always thought Jon's attempts had all the hallmarks that I admire in climbing... great skill, great judgement, uncompromising approach, ballsy as fcuk. And all of this remarkable climbing took place on a well-protected route that a stack of grade 25 climbers are also able to enjoy.

I honestly believe Warwick's effort on Alive in a Bitter Sea pales in comparison to Jon's attempt at soloing Trojan... yet Warwick says his route should be considered cultural heritage!

If Warwick had showed a bit more imagination he could have claimed the first free ascent of Echo Crack (25) which was right next door to where he was. And if he wanted to retain a mental challenge he could have launched up there with no big gear for the wide crack. Then he would definitely have been working hard to 'keep his shit together'. He also wouldn't be forcing others to play by his rules which were created from the luxury of a rap rope and with the aid of bolt placements to suit himself.

Maybe it is sour grapes on my part. But I'm surprised that a number of you are so willing to support a route established in poor style and designed to appeal to an exclusive few...

One Day Hero
13-Dec-2016
1:00:15 AM
On 12/12/2016 simey wrote:
>I honestly believe Warwick's effort on Alive in a Bitter Sea pales in
>comparison to Jon's attempt at soloing Trojan... yet he says his route
>should be considered as cultural heritage!

You've lost the plot Mentzy.

One of these things is the failed attempt at onsight soloing an established route, on bombproof rock, which had seen dozens (hundreds?) of ascents by that time. The other one is the preparation, inspection, bolting, and headpoint first ascent of a 3 pitch route on less than perfect rock.

Now seriously, what the f--- do these two events have to do with one other?
simey
13-Dec-2016
8:12:22 AM
On 13/12/2016 One Day Hero wrote:
>Now seriously, what the f--- do these two events have to do with one other?

Not a lot, because one is a stylish attempt with an uncompromising approach and the other isn't. I made the comparison because Warwick said his aim was to pursue the mental game in climbing and I am saying that he could have done that in better style and without hijacking a great piece of rock.

I don't mean to only pick on Warwick as the legacy of rap inspection and minimalist bolting has been practiced by a number of climbers for whatever reasons, but I hate seeing it being celebrated. Warwick is copping my wrath as Paul's original post simply bought back memories of my frustration from long ago of realising that such an appealing wall had effectively been denied as a ground-up lead to any reasonable climber.

simey
13-Dec-2016
8:53:17 AM
I have always thought that one of the more fundamental aims in climbing is to start at the bottom and finish at the top. (I don't recall Hillary and Tenzing rapping down Everest to check it out, or Bryden Allen rapping down Frenchmans Cap, or Ewbank pre-inspecting Dogface).

And I have always thought that if free-climbing is your ideal than any hanging around on a rope is a move away from that ideal.

The qualities that Alive in a Bitter Sea promotes were not achieved in a way I admire.

It is a bit like Lance Armstrong taking drugs to win the Tour de France, where the ends justifies the means.

Come to think of it, I'm going to issue Warwick a lifetime ban on climbing.


rodw
13-Dec-2016
8:56:28 AM
I have always thought that one of the more fundamental aims in climbing was to give you something to do until the pub opened..guess everyone has different fundamental aims.
WarwickB
13-Dec-2016
5:50:30 PM
Hey Simon,

I'm getting really inspired by your comments.

Inspired to get onto some of those magnificent walls out there, rap down them, play around, put the odd bolt in and do some good old fashioned first ascent 'headpoint wank'. I'll send you the photos, reckon it will get you spitting and cussing for another thirty years. Such bile should shorten your life more than any 'headpoint wank'.

Your extended carry one in this thread is absent any coherent logic, other than that you're pissed off because someone (myself) climbed a bunch of routes on a magnificant wall in the Blue Mountains in a manner you don't agree with, and that some other people thought those ascents were pretty impressive for the time. Yeah, ok, I get it. You can stop frothing now.

All the bullshit about selfishness and egoism, comparing totally incomparable climbs and ascents with each other, dictating to all and sundry how they should do first ascents, makes me think the far right must have infiltrated the climbing community. So, what we are going to have to do up here in NSW is get those warrants out, the wire taps and telephone intercepts on, and pick up Mr Menz and his rabid, frothing alt-right nutters before they cross the border. Then we should chain them to iron rings in a darkened cell where they will be condemned to watch Echo Point wall being rappelled, bolted, top-roped, and the moves tried on rap, over and over again. Call it aversion therapy! Recon that will do it. Get some of the brain wiring straightened out after the melt down this thread seems to have induced.

Now, summer has arrived in the Blue Mountains. Time to get out and get rapping. There are some magnificant cliffs in the Grose Valley to start on. And here was me thinking my climbing days were winding down. I've now found a whole new purpose to revitalise a wonderful, inspiring, old tradition.

See ya
WarwickB
simey
13-Dec-2016
6:32:47 PM
That sounds good Warwick. You establish some more headpoint wank routes and I will come up and retro Alive in a Bitter Sea.

But I do agree that I have made my point (although I reckon my approach of rap bolting for the majority leans more to the left whilst yours is far right).

What I am more amazed about is that Macca hasn't mentioned Shai-Hulud in this thread once.


simey
13-Dec-2016
6:52:31 PM
And don't think you are the only one who cops it on here. I have copped plenty of shit on Chockstone for things I have done in climbing because people have disagreed with me.

I also recall John Ewbank having a go at me after Steve Monks and I established The Free Route on the Totem Pole. After first congratulating me and saying how amazing it was that we had free climbed the pillar, he then realised during our conversation that we had rap bolted the route before climbing it. He was indignant! 'What is the f---ing point of that?' he exclaimed. I had to laugh.
mikllaw
13-Dec-2016
11:13:30 PM
It's fairly clear at either end of the spectrum of ethics; from on-sight ground up (which normally results in ground up and spat out) to consumer rap bolted classic.

All situations in between are a moire of action and the intent, for instance either:-

Iron Lady - (Action - rapped with a bolt to keep the rope in) (Intent-ground up bold hell)
or
Alive in a sea of bitter - (Action- sparsely bolted from above) (Intent - meaningful commitment)

can be seen in so many different ways depending on your philosophy/cynicism.

These routes would be regarded very differently if they were in Europe, USA, Oz, or UK (assuming there was 100m wall of perfect rock available there)

Ultimately you've got to follow your dream, even if it means the reality is similar to some very different dream. I recently head-pointed a little (you can see most of the placements from nearby tree) trad route with much fiddling on abseil, but with a good reading glasses and 2 grades I could have sussed the gear and done it ground up. My dream was a rare trad route on good rock, but it looks like a top rope suss. I assume most routes will be misunderstood.

As the general ethic in the mountains is to equip routes for an onsight, the echo wall routes are a bit out of the norm, but they may be a new norm for a tiny number of different fools.

(disclaimer- i believe in punters voting with their chalk, but alternate views are welcome)

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