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Crag & Route Beta

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VIC Arapiles	The Atridae	(General)	Main Wall	[ Arapiles Guide \| Arapiles Images ]

Author

Bolt on Atridae Wall?

robertsonja

5-Jul-2009
10:53:29 PM

On 5/07/2009 kieranl wrote:
Your right, the bolt proves that the climb has been drilled into submission.
Yes, there are stacks of bolts at Arapiles, this is my point; and no, just because there are heaps of bolts at Arapiles doesn't make any of them justified or justify the placement of more bolts.

Climbs we all care about, OK, how about the piton on Skink, the one on the traverse that you can load up with a shop full of cams?

kieranl

5-Jul-2009
11:24:51 PM

prb

6-Jul-2009
12:47:21 AM

On 5/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>Climbs we all care about, OK, how about the piton on Skink, the one on the traverse >that you can load up with a shop full of cams?

You can now, but you didn't have that option in 1966.


The good Dr

6-Jul-2009
12:19:33 PM

I think you are mixing up your concepts. Trad climbing has always considered fixed protection as one of a myriad of protection options. How that is interpreted varies from person to person depending on their experience, ego, emotional state at the time, etc etc. The interpretation is hotly debated around the world, with entrenched views on all sides.

I think what you are after is eschewing the use of fixed protection completely. This is not the view of Arapiles held the world over, the way it was developed, its continuing history and the way it will most likely be maintained. If you are after a zero fixed gear policy then Gritstone is the climbing medium for you.

You should definitely avoid aid climbing, as some of those routes (classics like Ozy) are littered with your metal nemesis, and boy, would that lead to a flame war on Chocky if you took offense there. (M9 should be treated carefully, he is an animal when let off the leash ;)

gfdonc

6-Jul-2009
12:22:20 PM

Thanks Dr, well put.

robertsonja

6-Jul-2009
12:35:25 PM

On 5/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>On 5/07/2009 kieranl wrote:
>Your right, the bolt proves that the climb has been drilled into submission.
>Yes, there are stacks of bolts at Arapiles, this is my point; and no,
>just because there are heaps of bolts at Arapiles doesn't make any of them
>justified or justify the placement of more bolts.
>
>Climbs we all care about, OK, how about the piton on Skink, the one on
>the traverse that you can load up with a shop full of cams?
>
>
>
Your post says :
"On 5/07/2009 kieranl wrote:
Your right, the bolt proves that the climb has been drilled into submission."

I did not say that. You have posted your own opinion as though it was a quote from me. I thought you were a troll but gave you the benefit of the doubt. What you have just posted is a lie and leaves me in no doubt. Go away, little man.

Keiran, no offense was meant and apologies if I have misunderstood you meaning. This is not a troll. You mentioned that someone has climbed this route without protection, hence my meaning was that the first ascentionist could of done the same, or walked on past, however they drilled the rock, hence my "drilled into submission" comment. The climbing effort was lowered to suit.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Jul-2009
12:35:55 PM

On 6/07/2009 gfdonc wrote:
>Thanks Dr, well put.

Agreed.
... but not too sure about this bit...
>and boy, would that lead to a flame war on Chocky if you took offense there. (M9 should be treated carefully, he is an animal when let off the leash ;)

The only things on leashes are aid climbers hammers. If you want unleashed hammers I am told one has to visit The Pines Campground to find them.
Heh^X???


nmonteith

6-Jul-2009
12:40:07 PM

On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
You mentioned that someone has climbed this
>route without protection, hence my meaning was that the first ascentionist
>could of done the same, or walked on past, however they drilled the rock,
>hence my "drilled into submission" comment. The climbing effort was lowered
>to suit.

I just don't get why you are picking on that obscure route with a single carrot? 50m to the left of that route is about 30 bolts of various vintage on the Have a Good Flight Wall. Surely that is much worse in your eyes?

robertsonja

6-Jul-2009
12:46:24 PM

On 6/07/2009 The good Dr wrote:
>I think you are mixing up your concepts. Trad climbing has always considered
>fixed protection as one of a myriad of protection options. How that is
>interpreted varies from person to person depending on their experience,
>ego, emotional state at the time, etc etc. The interpretation is hotly
>debated around the world, with entrenched views on all sides.
>
>I think what you are after is eschewing the use of fixed protection completely.
>This is not the view of Arapiles held the world over, the way it was developed,
>its continuing history and the way it will most likely be maintained. If
>you are after a zero fixed gear policy then Gritstone is the climbing medium
>for you.
>
>You should definitely avoid aid climbing, as some of those routes (classics
>like Ozy) are littered with your metal nemesis, and boy, would that lead
>to a flame war on Chocky if you took offense there. (M9 should be treated
>carefully, he is an animal when let off the leash ;)

In my foolishness and naivety I have confused clipping a piton eye with a bolt eye and a piton scar with a rusty stub.

I have climbed Ozy, and yes it is "littered". Another climb that has been "drilled into submission". Just buy yourself some etriers, and follow the bolt ladders, blown piton scars and rust stains to the top.


The good Dr

6-Jul-2009
12:46:54 PM

On 6/07/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 6/07/2009 gfdonc wrote:
>>Thanks Dr, well put.
>
>Agreed.
>... but not too sure about this bit...
>>and boy, would that lead to a flame war on Chocky if you took offense
>there. (M9 should be treated carefully, he is an animal when let off the
>leash ;)
>
>
>The only things on leashes are aid climbers hammers. If you want
>unleashed hammers I am told one has to visit The Pines Campground
>to find them.
>Heh^X???

>
>
Sorry, I should have said '.... as unpredictable as a Leeper hanger'.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Jul-2009
1:10:01 PM

TgD wrote;
>as unpredictable as a Leeper hanger'.

(It is OK, I appreciated the humour ☺).

Btw, hangers often just sit there (cuddling a bolt?), and are therefore predictable; ... gotta watch out for hooks though, Heh,_{Heh,_Heh.}!!!

Back to topic.

I have not been to Araps much, but I do remember being a bit astonished at the amount of fixed gear I saw there on my first visit. A lot of it is unnecessary in my opinion.
I think the same about Buffalo too.

robertsonja

6-Jul-2009
1:11:38 PM

On 6/07/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
> You mentioned that someone has climbed this
>>route without protection, hence my meaning was that the first ascentionist
>>could of done the same, or walked on past, however they drilled the rock,
>>hence my "drilled into submission" comment. The climbing effort was lowered
>>to suit.
>
>I just don't get why you are picking on that obscure route with a single
>carrot? 50m to the left of that route is about 30 bolts of various vintage
>on the Have a Good Flight Wall. Surely that is much worse in your eyes?

You have to start somewhere right? By making the ridiculous seem absurd (eg Touchtype where 6 new bolts were added last year for some 4m of shitty new climbing by a guide book author), hopefully the norm can be shifted.

Of course Good Flight Wall is worse, its a little bit of Nowra in the Wimmera.

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=15&MessageID=8991&Replies=46


nmonteith

6-Jul-2009
1:40:00 PM


Sabu

6-Jul-2009
2:00:15 PM

On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>Keiran, no offense was meant and apologies if I have misunderstood you
>meaning. This is not a troll. You mentioned that someone has climbed this
>route without protection, hence my meaning was that the first ascentionist
>could of done the same, or walked on past, however they drilled the rock,
>hence my "drilled into submission" comment. The climbing effort was lowered
>to suit.
You obviously did not recognise the significance of the "H.B." part, he's not human and
therefore should not be counted as your average climber.

As for Skink, I climbed that yesterday and the piton was just fine. Its a good 2 meters
away from the horizontal and protects a pendulum if you come off going up to the belay
stance.
Overall you seem to be clutching at straws and deliberately trying to start an argument
with people who have far more to do with Araps than you.

widewetandslippery

6-Jul-2009
2:18:45 PM

robertsonja get off you high horse. Other people blight the landscape in a greater way than a bolt they place ever will.

I am a grid bolter and proud of it.

On 6/07/2009 Sabu wrote:
>On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:

>You obviously did not recognise the significance of the "H.B." part, he's
>not human and
>therefore should not be counted as your average climber.

Sabu. HB is an average climber who manages above average performances, I believe, because of hard work and love of climbing. HB is a popular "hero" I believe due to his "accesability" rather than being "not human".

>Overall you seem to be clutching at straws and deliberately trying to
>start an argument
>with people who have far more to do with Araps than you.
>

The locals giving there view are doing just that. The "people who have far more to do with Araps than you" have no more or less right to dictate what goes on than anyone else. They do however, as I do, have the ability to disagree with robertsonjas views.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-Jul-2009
4:27:22 PM

On 2/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>A previous generation who used pitions and other antiquated methods should not set precedent.

&
On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>In my foolishness and naivety I have confused clipping a piton eye with
>a bolt eye and a piton scar with a rusty stub.
>
>I have climbed Ozy, and yes it is "littered". Another climb that has been
>"drilled into submission". Just buy yourself some etriers, and follow the
>bolt ladders, blown piton scars and rust stains to the top.
>

Precedent?
Hmm.
It appears to me that your two statements are at odds with each other.

You climbed a line that was already done, (by aid originally)!
~> You aided Ozy yes?
What a novel idea.

Aside from the bolting ethic, I would suggest that vision to climb (by whatever means) any given line = a precedent of sorts.
Guide books would have nothing to report if not for precedent?

Could it be possible in the future that you look back to the nasty old clean climbing days of now, that includes modern methods like placing bolts (where needed?), and dare I say it, clean-aid, in the same light for 'precedent ascents' such as you look back on the nasty old piton days of yore?

As an aside; there are not too many rust stains (I assume you mean from bolts), at Buffalo. The far greater crime there is the galvanic leaching from the tourist guard-rails that have killed off the natural lichen below most lookouts ...

robertsonja

6-Jul-2009
5:20:02 PM

On 6/07/2009 widewetandslippery wrote:
>robertsonja get off you high horse. Other people blight the landscape in
>a greater way than a bolt they place ever will.

>I am a grid bolter and proud of it.

There are no horses just rusty bolts in national parks for the next generation.

So you admit that bolts blight the landscape but that's OK because there are worse cases of vandalism or defacing natural places out there. And your proud of being a grid blighter then, walking into the wilderness or national parks and drilling multiple holes in natural cliff faces just so YOU can climb it, by your logic that is OK because there is a bitumen road near by which marks the landscape more so.


nmonteith

6-Jul-2009
5:25:43 PM

On 6/07/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>So you admit that bolts blight the landscape but that's OK because there
>are worse cases of vandalism or defacing natural places out there. And
>your proud of being a grid blighter then, walking into the wilderness or
>national parks and drilling multiple holes in natural cliff faces just
>so YOU can climb it, by your logic that is OK because there is a bitumen
>road near by which marks the landscape more so.

yep.


evanbb

6-Jul-2009
5:27:00 PM

On 6/07/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Delorian, Mike J and the Dr

Good!

Would a submarine help this thread?


evanbb

6-Jul-2009
5:28:42 PM

On 6/07/2009 widewetandslippery wrote:
> HB is a popular "hero" I believe due to his "accesability" rather than being "not human".

He's a hero in my eyes for aiding LGT and Ozy in a day, while wearing KT26s!

There are 43 messages in this topic.