Crag & Route Beta

Author	Eco Crag, Touch-Type?
robertsonja 26-Mar-2009 1:05:34 PM	On 24/03/2009 simey wrote: >On 24/03/2009 robertsonja wrote: >>I wish we were just debating our opinions but unfortunately the rock >has already been chipped and drilled. I wasn’t looking for sympathy, more >so I was asking that the first ascentionists remove all of their antiquated >ironmongery. > >I'm afraid all you are going to get is my sympathy. I'm not saying your >opinion is wrong, but my opinion is that that Touch-Type is worthwhile >so I won't be rushing up there to remove the bolts. I wish we were just debating our opinions but....... >I have a few questions for you though... > >You refer to chipping and drilling... what chipping? First rap station from the ground up, left hand bolt from memory, it looks like there is some chipping or marking of the rock in order to place the bolt.....it looks like a rushed job in order to make the Press! >You refer to Touchstone as a stella classic line... since when did a long >traverse to gain a short crackline followed by a second pitch that originally >traversed to an easy arete, but is now more commonly climbed up the wall, >become a stella classic line? I was refering to Touch-Type. Touchstone is (was) a 2 star Trad climb from the early 70's. Touch-Type is the stella classic line, it should be given four stars, two for each bolt. Touch-Type is about to become even more futuristic. >How do you feel about the rap anchors eliminating the need to rig natural >belays on the Watchtower Faces, Muldoon, Collision Course, Tannin, Cecilia, >Squeakeasy, Voodoo, Chinese Algebra, King Rat, Skydiver, to name just a >few. Or don't they count? Don't let some previous poor choices set precedent! I don't want to get off topic but your first example - Watchtower Face - we have just one rap decent from the Left right through to the Right Watchtower face, zero on the Pinnacle face...that is alot of mileage. Some rap stations obviously have their place, safety, reduce erosion etc but just for the sake of convenience/easier? So I would suggest that we don't place (or renew) rap stations on an existing climb if at all possible, but seek alternative lines if a consultative consensus is reached. >Since when did a climb have to be comparable to a route in the Verdon >Gorge to have rap anchors installed? Verdon Gorge has different ethics to Arapiles, difference rock (limestone), up to 700m cliffs and where the ethics dictates rap in descents to climb the upper reaches....if we've got to start adding anchors at Arapiles to do a couple of metres of climbing at the grade we should all get off the crack. >How is Touch-Type contrived when you can't reach into neighbouring climbs >or use nearby holds to make the climbing easier? A line doesn't have to interfere with neighbouring climbs to be worthless (well not worth the addition of 2 bolts anyway) and contrived. >
robertsonja 26-Mar-2009 1:19:19 PM	On 24/03/2009 SwineOfTheTimes wrote: >On 24/03/2009 dalai wrote: >>nmonteith - please don't encourage a chopping/rebolting war. Ther have >>been enough at Arapiles and elsewhere already! > >The fun has only just begun! Chockstone can be funny place, but I don't think this process or matter is funny. People who obviously put back into the climbing community and were trying to do the right thing deserve the respect of this process......future rust stains and holes in the rock is not funny.
robertsonja 26-Mar-2009 1:31:14 PM	On 26/03/2009 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote: >I managed to the routes in this area on a top rope prior to the bolts >appearing, which says to me that >natural belays are available. Of course natural belays are available its an established trad route at Arapiles..... >The bolts are in now, so it's too late. > Chopping them is just going to make >the people that put them in in the first place get cranky and drill more >holes. WTF - its never too late chop bolts, and if rectifying a wrong makes people cranky and perpetrate again...where would our justice system be? >But maybe; just maybe, the >people putting the bolts in might like to have a look around to see if >trad anchors are available. Arapiles >has always been about only putting bolts in when natural gear is not available. No that is not what Arapiles has always been about. With those sort of degraded ethics we'll end up with bolts in every piece of rock that won't hold a Black Diamond MicroCam. >Does your route go straight up from the belay, or do you mean left of >the chimney bit? Do I get a T-shirt or >any other kind of encouragment?
widewetandslippery 26-Mar-2009 1:44:40 PM	I always thought Araps was ALWAYS about sinking steel, the bolting really got going once you weren't allowed to shoot at the cliff anymore. Are you guys really carrying on about a few bolts at the arse end of the crag?
robertsonja 26-Mar-2009 1:51:36 PM	On 26/03/2009 simey wrote: >On 25/03/2009 cruze wrote: >>I always thought Arapiles had enough routes for a lifetime of climbing. >It now appears that 90 years between 4 people have proved that theory wrong. > >Arapiles might have enough routes for a lifetime if you climb in the higher >grades but it is possible to exhaust all the worthwhile routes if you only >climb more moderate grades. If one has exhausted all the moderate climbs at Arapiles, either climb them all again, climb harder, climb somewhere else, or go to the golf course out the back. Lets not start bolting the place up for just for the sake, for the sake of new routes.
Eduardo Slabofvic 26-Mar-2009 2:08:48 PM	On 24/03/2009 simey wrote: >How do you feel about the rap anchors eliminating the need to rig natural >belays on the Watchtower Faces, Muldoon, Collision Course, Tannin, Cecilia, >Squeakeasy, Voodoo, Chinese Algebra, King Rat, Skydiver, to name just a >few. Or don't they count? I feel like this. The ones on Watchtower Faces, Collision Course, and Tannin service multiple routes, and I'm all for putting in rap stations that can service an area and assist in reducing gully erosion. The ones on Voodoo Buttress do this to a certain extent. I don't think I've used the other ones you've mentioned, so I can't comment on them. But there's two on Colosseum Wall, where one did the job for quire some time. There's two on Castle Crag, where one did the job for a long time, and there's 4 (three of which are within spitting distance of each other) to get down from the Alis, and now two on Echo crag where perhaps one that could service Echo Crag and Hurts Wall would have been sufficient (I can't remember if there's a rap station on Hurts Wall already). So, are these rap stations being put in to provide descent routes to assist in reducing erosion in the gullies, or are they being put in because its too "inconvenient" to rig a belay.
Eduardo Slabofvic 26-Mar-2009 2:22:43 PM	On 26/03/2009 robertsonja wrote: > >Of course natural belays are available its an established trad route at >Arapiles..... Kind of my point. >WTF - its never too late chop bolts, and if rectifying a wrong makes people >cranky and perpetrate again...where would our justice system be? It would be in the sh1thole that it currently finds itself. If I put in two bolts, then you chop them, there are still two bolts in the rock, its just that they are unusable. I may then be motivated to go back to replace the two you chopped. There are now four bolts, so ad infinitum. Once a bolt goes in, the hole never goes away. Planning for the day when the bolt needs replacing (as they will all need replacing some day) should be considered. I mentioned Castle Crag earlier. Take Swinging as an example. Swinging has 2 bolts doesn't it? Wrong, it now has 8. How many will it have in another 30 years? Ans - no less than 8 but probably more. This is more about maintinance though, I just use it as an example that springs to mind of how bolts beget more bolts. >No that is not what Arapiles has always been about. With those sort of >degraded ethics we'll end up with bolts in every piece of rock that won't >hold an Black Diamond MicroCam. I disagree.
nmonteith 26-Mar-2009 2:33:42 PM	You will never get a consensus from the climbing community when you are talking about bolts. It is the most polarizing part of the climbing experience. There will always be someone who wants no bolts, and someone who wants more bolts.
nmonteith 26-Mar-2009 2:40:47 PM	One thing that comes to mind when contemplating bolting in a situation like this - will the new bolts be an escape path for leaders who get freaked about the original trad route? Is it possible to traverse off to them at other points of the original route? A bit like soloing while wearing a harness, or leading with a fixed rope running down the route. It's lessons the degree of commitment to the ascent and offers an easy way out.
adrian 26-Mar-2009 5:11:37 PM	On 26/03/2009 nmonteith wrote: >One thing that comes to mind when contemplating bolting in a situation >like this - will the new bolts be an escape path for leaders who get freaked >about the original trad route? Is it possible to traverse off to them at >other points of the original route? > >A bit like soloing while wearing a harness, or leading with a fixed rope >running down the route. It's lessons the degree of commitment to the ascent >and offers an easy way out. Personally I don't think this is relevant at all. There are plenty of well protected, straight-forward climbs out there if people are nervous at the grade - what's wrong with committment being required?
cruxmag 26-Mar-2009 5:17:03 PM	On 26/03/2009 adrian wrote: >Personally I don't think this is relevant at all. There are plenty of >well protected, straight-forward climbs out there if people are nervous >at the grade - what's wrong with committment being required? That's the point i was trying to make. By bolting near a trad route you actually lesson the commitment of the original route. It's worth considering if this is the case when you find a new route and you want to place bolts. I am not familiar with this area or route in particular - my point could be entirely irrelevant.
cruze 26-Mar-2009 5:46:08 PM	The question I would ask is "why did the FAist decide to veer off left on Touchstone P2?" I remember leading the second pitch of Touchstone thinking that veering off left was a little contrived. The blunt arete wasn't much chop and it hardly added any heightened sense of exposure. The face straight up looked quite nice actually. It now makes sense why they veered off left. They decided that going straight up direct was beyond them at the time. They left that direct finish for another party at another time. It now seems blindingly obvious that that section of the wall was being left for a better or bolder climber to come along at a later stage and establish something more daring. (I am willing to stand corrected - it is just my theory) Now, what could have been a committing finish, has been lessened by the security of fixed gear. Obviously the direct finish wasn't one of Victoria's last great testpieces, but to someone that climbs moderate grades, and is willing to put it on the line, it could have represented a really nice challenge with a spicy finish apparently at around 20 or so (sans bolts). Also, establishing bolted rap stations at natural belay ledges lessens the experience of multipitching provided to a novice climber on a climb such as Touchstone. Perhaps if people want to rap in (or want to encourage others to rap in to reduce erosion) then setting natural belays at rap stations, and collecting them on the way out (which would be a cinch on Touchstone, Touch-type or whatever else) would be a far better practice. I also think that Eduardo has a good point regarding rebolting and rebolting over time. We must surely realise how young rock climbing is in Australia. The longer we can keep from drilling bolts the better. I shudder to think what the soft Blue Mountains sandstone will look like in 100 years (200 years?) of patching holes left by glue ins and drilling new ones for rebolting. Especially considering that we have only been bolting for 25(?) years.
cruxmag 26-Mar-2009 5:57:17 PM	On 26/03/2009 cruze wrote: > Especially considering that we have only been bolting for 25(?) years. There has been bolts used in Australia since the 1950s - ie 50 years ago. There was LOTS of bolting done in the 60s and 70s (check out some of the lovely aid bolt ladders at your local crag).
cruze 26-Mar-2009 6:03:57 PM	Stand corrected. Although the increasing amplitude of my shuddering means that I may soon be lying corrected.
wallwombat 26-Mar-2009 6:58:57 PM	I'd like to see cruxmag have an argument with nmonteith over this subject. Holy schizophrenia, Batman!
nmonteith 26-Mar-2009 9:35:17 PM	On 26/03/2009 wallwombat wrote: >I'd like to see cruxmag have an argument with nmonteith over this subject. that cruxmag guys a jerk. he owes me a lot of money as well.
kieranl 26-Mar-2009 10:25:40 PM	Eduardo, What's the description for Bernard Gets A Bullet? The T-Shirt is calling me.
adrian 26-Mar-2009 10:41:34 PM	On 26/03/2009 cruxmag wrote: >On 26/03/2009 adrian wrote: >>Personally I don't think this is relevant at all. There are plenty of >>well protected, straight-forward climbs out there if people are nervous >>at the grade - what's wrong with committment being required? > >That's the point i was trying to make. By bolting near a trad route you >actually lesson the commitment of the original route. It's worth considering >if this is the case when you find a new route and you want to place bolts. >I am not familiar with this area or route in particular - my point could >be entirely irrelevant. Sorry Neil, we were agreeing - I just didn't realise it.
devlin66 26-Mar-2009 11:21:16 PM	On 26/03/2009 nmonteith wrote: >On 26/03/2009 wallwombat wrote: >>I'd like to see cruxmag have an argument with nmonteith over this subject. > >that cruxmag guys a jerk. he owes me a lot of money as well. Out him, then we can boycott him. Imagine him dragging you down into his seedy mag world. He didn't make you pose for any centerfolds, did he?
prb 27-Mar-2009 9:34:54 AM	nmonteith may be schizophrenic, but at least he has each other.

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