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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 89
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Grampians Central (General) (General) [ Grampians Guide | Images ] 

Author
Mt Rosea access

shiltz
22/11/2007
1:28:28 PM
Most of the walks at Buffalo have a nice yellow note warning of the dangers. Why not do the same in the Grampians?
Access T CliffCare
22/11/2007
2:12:16 PM
On 21/11/2007 JamesMc wrote:
>On 27/08/2007 Access T wrote:
>
> There are about 26 trees that need work
>>or removing and about another 23 that need clearing from the track.
>Until
>>this is done and officially declared open, Rosea is still classed as a
>>FAA. So, not legal to access. It is moving,but, not as fast as you would
>>like unfortunately. Each bit of news is getting us closer and I do hope
>>to have the kind that makes you smile sooner, rather than later.
>
>On 31/08/2007 Access T wrote:
>>All of the 23 trees are on the climbers track John.
>
>This is bloody rediculous and it's time somebody said so. 23 + 26 = 49
>suspect trees along a track that's about a kilometre long. Let's assume
>they will all fall down within a year. It takes about ten seconds to walk
>past a tree.

There are 26 trees throughout the area (not the climbers track)that need work in the form of limb removal or total removal. There are 23 separate trees on the climbers track that need removal including one which will need specialist labour to remove(if these are not removed, people will walk around them, creating new tracks. This happens when even a small low branch overhangs a track). Assessed risk trees are also required to be removed before volunteers parties can go in.
The hikers track will also, more than likely need work.
The possibility of climbers being allowed to access the area after the initial risk work has been done, and before Silverband Road is open, by hiking in if they so chose, HAS been discussed. They are not agreeable. If they allow climbers in they would have to allow hikers. The plan for the area is to have it useable by all the groups, not just climbers and all the work done. The campground needs to be organized, there will also be a toilet facility. As I mentioned before, there are a number of issues, not just one.

On 21/11/2007 Safer Cliffs Victoria
On 20/11/2007 Access T wrote:
>Better news for some of the less visited cliffs. Mt. William is now accessible
>for climbing. Mt. Frederick, Bovine Cliff and Redmans Bluff are very close
>to inspection and assessment and will let you know as soon as possible.

>Are these areas currently banned? The roads have been open right next to them for months. >I know people (myself included) have been climbing there thinking it was ok.

Yes, still closed but shouldn't be for much longer unless the erosion is still a big problem.

On 21/11/2007 Kieranl wrote
>I do have to laugh about the the concept of Mt Frederick being "cleared" for climbing access. No-one wanted to go there before the fires so I can't see why scarce Park resources would be wasted on opening it up again.

This is as a result from climbing community enquiries. For all those who like to visit the popular and well visited areas there have also been enquiries from others that prefer these areas. As it is an area that doesn't, and won't, receive a huge amount of traffic there should be little Park resources that will be needed to re-open.

On 21/11/2007 jgoding wrote
>Good news re funding. Let us know how & when we can assist with a working bee so the >climbing community can contribute rather than bitch.

>Are there any special skills you think you'll need for the working bee team?

At this point, I can't tell you if we need any specialist skills. More than likely it will be similar skills we have used at other working bees. Track clearing, stonework etc. The tree risk work will have been done but if we need anyone with chainsaw licenses etc. I will let you know closer to the date. Those that have done any of this kind of work before are always encouraged to attend - makes for a smooth running work team. But - everyone is welcome and needed. Experience or not.


>It's nearly two years since the area was burnt, and we are still waiting
>to be allowed to go back to Mt Rosea.

And this, I understand, is why everyone is becoming impatient. I hope the answers/comments make sense and is not a convoluted ramble. I would love to say that we are the number one priority, but at this point, we are not. ParksVic are working to a plan with the funding where those areas in the park that will get the most use, impact and relieve other high use areas are a higher priority.

Thanks,
Tracey

(And can someone please tell me how to take quotes from a range of peoples posts. I have just been cutting and pasting. That tool is my biggest friend, but there has got to be an easier way!)

nmonteith
22/11/2007
3:12:08 PM
...they are too busy installing f--- off big metal staircases in the Wonderland area to be worried about re-
opening Rosea.

Dom
22/11/2007
4:19:58 PM
I’m sympathetic to PV’s case. Under resourced for the task of rebuilding an entire national park after a wildfire I’m sure the last thing they’re worried about is the likes of us. It’s actually in their interests to keep us out as long as possible because, for every month we’re not accessing these crags, it’s a month that they don’t have to concern themselves with parkland degradation and wildlife interference.

There are some on this forum that can legitimately claim to have done something for ‘climbing’ but precious few can, hand on heart, claim to have had a positive net impact on the areas in which they climb.

cruze
22/11/2007
4:35:06 PM
I like your sentiment Dom, I really do, but I do not agree with your stance.

PV have a tough job managing parks no doubt. That is why, as a tax payer, I don't mind my taxes going towards paying people to make informed decisions about how to manage them. I just question whether closure of an area of a park on the basis that dead trees might fall over and kill someone is an informed position. Keep campgrounds in burnt out areas closed (because invariably the tree fall accidents that we all hear about [eg recently in Lorne] usually happen when people stay in one place too long - ie asleep in a tent), but I don't know about tracks.

As for allowing the parks to recover in the absence of human interference, that's a really good point, but if that were the case then the parks should never be open unless there is zero human impact. I think that that would be a very difficult aim to achieve.

I think that people that volunteer to help out in parks are amazing, but likewise I think that the bricky that builds my house, the doctor that treats my broken back and the tram driver that gets me to work are all equally amazing and shouldn't feel that they have to volunteer to fix up a park post-fire in order to use that park or have an opinion on how it is run.

Dom
22/11/2007
5:28:41 PM
So many topics to cover here, great reply!

You talk as if you, or any of us, are paying a fair price to use the park Cruze. If you wanted the marginal cost of your usage covered then you'd be paying a fee to a private company to enter their park. Just extrapolate from the Summerday Valley ourcome and you'll appreciate what I'm talking about.

I'm sure they (PV) went to great lengths to inform themselves about possible positions which were open to to them (regarding to area closures). I can only assume that the closures of the Rosea area (and others) have been undertaken because of the legal risk which the PV would have to wear should they 'open the gates'. Why would they take the risk???

I think you do know about tracks... It seems to me that a number of chockstoners are prepared to take the risk themselves. I know I would (I'm going climbing in the gramps this weekend and would love to visit Rosea but I don't want to be the guy that fruges it for everyone, who knows, they might ban us if we stuff around here).

As for volunteering; I don't think it should be necessary, which is why I've recently been in contact with my local member about funding for our national parks... we pay those guys for a reason too...
gfdonc
23/11/2007
9:46:38 AM
Raises the question: I wonder if on this basis the liability also extends to rockfall?
i.e. if PV are concerned about loose limbs on trees why not also loose blocks (Rosea has a few)?
Where does liability start and end?
Lastly has there ever been a recorded serious injury from treefall while walking? A tree landed 2-3m from me once while mountain biking (I was off the bike having a rest stop). I was surprised how hard it was to ascertain the position and direction of the falling tree in a short enough time to move out of the way.

Dom
23/11/2007
10:36:53 AM
I wonder if PV would accept a liability waiver from climbers if they wanted to climb in these areas? Perhaps the VCC could raise this with them??
Ronny
23/11/2007
10:44:07 AM
On 23/11/2007 gfdonc wrote:

>Where does liability start and end?

It starts and ends where there is a 'duty of care'.

The climbs on Rosea aren't specifically sanctioned by Parks, are not maintained by Parks, are not publicised by Parks, and it would be a nearly impossible task to actually go and remove all the loose blocks (well beyond what anyone would say could be reasonably expected of Parks) - therefore no liability.

The tracks around Rosea are sanctioned by Parks, they are maintained by Parks, they are publicised by Parks, it is clearly foreseeable that an accident could occur and the removal of obviously dangerous trees is a fairly simple task - therefore liability.

Tort law is often (ok - not always) more rational and justifiable than most people would give it credit for.

I must say I'm still not really convinced that falling trees warrant the closure - but having to remove fallen trees so that people don't go around and trample a whole bunch of the re-growth is a pretty good reason for keeping it closed.

J

IdratherbeclimbingM9
23/11/2007
10:47:58 AM
On 23/11/2007 Dom wrote:
>I wonder if PV would accept a liability waiver from climbers if they wanted
>to climb in these areas? Perhaps the VCC could raise this with them??

It would be worth a try but I am not hopeful of a good outcome as it is a bit like what gfdonc wrote re
>Where does liability start and end?
Next thing we could find ourselves having to sign one to camp at The Pines! ?

_______________________
Post edit: Good post Ronny. Yours went in while I was typing and so my post is out of context as I had not read yours. I now see that signing a waiver for camping at The Pines is not a good example.
_______________________


On 22/11/2007 shiltz wrote:
>Most of the walks at Buffalo have a nice yellow note warning of the dangers.
> Why not do the same in the Grampians?

There is a slight difference between the two places re aftermath of fires and unstable trees; as I heard from a ranger at Buffalo that due to snowfall weighting dead trees up there over winter, that if anything was going to fall it was likely to have done so over that period (winter).
Not much snowfall out Rosea way to my knowledge though on some occasions it no doubt feels like it (heh, heh) ...

_____________________
2nd post edit re nm post below:
>strong wind
Is not a difference as both places get that, but yeah, one would reckon that it would also help bring down unstable trees.

... termites and climbers unite!
woddawewant?
Access!
wendowewonnit?
Now!

Heh, heh, heh.

nmonteith
23/11/2007
10:51:37 AM
I would have thought strong wind would be worse than any snow weight?
kieranl
23/11/2007
7:38:05 PM
On 23/11/2007 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Not much snowfall out Rosea way to my knowledge though on some occasions
>it no doubt feels like it (heh, heh) ...
>

Rosea only gets snowfall during winter and that occasionally.
In July 1984 there was a heavy snowfall in the grampians (it was a monday, I had just spent a very cold weekend with Terry Tremble and Paul Vlahovic in the Vic Range ("Do You Mind If I Smoke" was put up on that weekend - we had a fire at the base of the climb trying to keep warm)). The snowfall severely damaged the tops of the trees at Rosea and the large tree on the first belay of Debutante was ripped from the cliff by the weight of snow.
drdeviousii
24/11/2007
5:17:06 PM
Is that all it was? Here's us thinking you were talking about rolling a big doobie.

nmonteith
26/11/2007
10:32:27 AM
I just spent the weekend driving and walkling aroudn the totally burnt out mountains near Mt Buller,
Stirling, Cobbler and Speculation and the Bluff. All these araes were tourched in the recent alpine fires.
There was dead trees everywhere - but public access was open to 99% of everything - hundreds of km of
roads, walking tracks ect. Only very subtle yellow signs saying be careful. Why are these all open and
not rosea?

Dom
26/11/2007
11:31:13 AM
Good call Neil. Uniformity in the application of the rules (if there are any) would be nice.
Access T CliffCare
4/02/2008
9:43:45 AM
Hi All,

Just before Christmas I visited Rosea. Regrowth is looking great and there appears to be little damage to the track except in one area where it needs some stabilization. Unfortunately, it was pelting down on and off so we didn't get to check out the top of the cliffs. I have put a few pictures I took on the day on our photo site, vicclimbingclub-cliffcare@smugmug.com

I have organized a small group for a working day on the 24th February to do the little bit of work needed, track marking etc. and to generally assess. There appears to be little damage to the rock although Kieran Loughran who also came along, noted that one of the trees has been burnt and appears dead. The supporting ground therefore could be compromised. A lot of the tree risk work has been done and crews have also been busy in the surrounding areas, Sundial etc. doing the work that needs to be done there for opening the area.

Cheers,
Tracey

nmonteith
4/02/2008
9:47:19 AM
Actual link...
http://www.vicclimbingclub-cliffcare.smugmug.com/gallery/4191122#244903754

Am i on this working bee? I sent you an email a few weeks ago but i don't remember a reply...
Access T CliffCare
4/02/2008
9:52:47 AM
Hi Neil,

Yes you are. I was going to reply with the final details which I'm organizing this week.
Access T CliffCare
26/02/2008
4:43:55 PM
The working bee at Rosea on Sunday 24th Feb. went well with all the work completed. Many thanks to all the volunteers.. Frank Van der Peet, Cameron Abraham, Steve Monks, Zoe Wilkinson, Josef Goding, Naomi Gibbs, Simon Mitchell, James McIntosh, Cate Webb and Fiona McCallum. Parks Victoria have cleared all the trees that were classed as a risk and cleared the tracks of them. Our work included track stabilization, clearing track of bracken, cairning and track marking and cliff assessment. We have marked the track on the cliff top back to the Giant Staircase as clearly as possible with yellow tape and cairns. Some sections are more defined than others - just keep your eyes open for the markers..

Other Info of note:
Tree on Mixed Climb is dead. As it is a soil ledge, the stability of this will need to be assessed as time goes on and the roots rot.
Tree on R.I.P. corner is alive and has new growth.
Trees on Ascension area are dead.

Opening is planned for Easter which is only weeks away! The Rosea Campground opposite the track is now permanently closed.(It is being re-located but will mainly help out hikers as it is about 1/2 km in from the road) Nearest campgrounds are Borough Huts and Boreang. Bush camping is still off limits in the Victoria Valley but shall keep you informed of any progress on this front.

I have uploaded some pictures from the working bee so you can check out the area and the work that's been done http://www.vicclimbingclub-cliffcare.smugmug.com/gallery/4191122#244903754
Will upload some more later tonight on the cliff assessments.

Cheers,

Tracey Skinner

nmonteith
26/02/2008
4:51:33 PM
On 26/02/2008 Access T wrote:
>Opening is planned for Easter which is only weeks away! The Rosea Campground
>opposite the track is now permanently closed.(It is being re-located but
>will mainly help out hikers as it is about 1/2 km in from the road) Nearest
>campgrounds are Borough Huts and Boreang. Bush camping is still off limits
>in the Victoria Valley but shall keep you informed of any progress on this
>front.

Do they intend to eventually allow camping at the 'official' bush sites the VCC helped build along the road to Bundaleer?

p.s. - sorry i didn't make it to the working bee. Too much action up north on the saturday!

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