Crag & Route Beta

Author	Protection on Kachoong
Organ Pipe 31-Dec-2006 11:34:51 AM	Wow, I go wakeboarding for a day and look what happens. Apologies, my intention was never to kick off another “Christmas” thread. As Onsight said: “Personally I'd be sewing it up to the hilt...” this was my basic reason for posting in the first place. Yes I’m keen to climb Kachoong in the not too distant future, and short of waiting round on the photographers ledge hoping to watch someone else climb it, I thought Googling some images and posting on Chockstone would be both great sources of info on the best gear types and positioning. As WM said: “The extended piece is what you place when you're at the rest at the top of the wall.” Again this is exactly what I was referring to. I was puzzled by the thought of motoring up the wall, swinging out onto the flake, then placing the first piece since half way up the wall (although I now understand that the intention may have been for an out there feeling photo) Then bomber pro said: “Organ was suggesting that he put in then unclip again,” well actually, I was simply offering this as an explanation of how this photo came to be. I was not suggesting that undoing previously placed gear is a worthwhile pastime – rather that this would explain the lack of gear in the crack at the top of the wall. Bomber pro later said: “well go and do the climb and stop all the Googling about, you might find out all about the right gear and where it goes!”. Cheers! I certainly will be attempting the climb soon but thought that maybe a friendly climbing website, say, like, Chockstone would also be a nice way to “find out all about the right gear and where it goes!” Anyway, let it be known, I very much appreciate the wealth of knowledge offered up for free by you Chockstone folk. And bomber pro, I certainly have no real ill feeling towards you so please mate, take some spice out of your posts. I can’t see how this following quote of yours was ever meant to be constructive: “Organ Pipe does not know what he is talking about, as the closest he has ever come to doing the route is typing a Google search for it. therefore I will not be getting exited about anything he or you have to say on the subject. as I sujested to him if he values the onsight then go for it and stop googling off.”
muki 31-Dec-2006 12:29:57 PM	On 31/12/2006 Organ Pipe wrote:I can’t see how this following quote of yours was ever meant to be constructive ? as I sujested to him if he values the onsight then go for it. The onsight of any climb will be the ultimate way to experience the route. if you decide to rip yourself off ,then go for it ,but Im more into the ethic that a ground up traditional onsight is the best style,the whole yoyo, top rope inspection, pre placed gear,work the moves thing is ok for some, but I cannot help but try and preserve what little of that slowly disolving ethic is left. with the current exellent gear we have at our disposal,we should have no excuse for turning the crag into a climbing gym,complete with top ropes and beta spew,(internet beta spew?)If you are a traditional climber, then climb traditionaly,ground up,onsight,it will give you a much more definative idea of what you are trully capable of and what your not. I have nothing against you iether, just your lack of style,if you decide to devalue the experience then thats up to you. my spice as you call it was just a my way of trying to get you to wake up and smell the coffee. I am an extreemly blunt person and have been TOLD many times, but I make no apolagies for that its who I am.if you met me in person rather than reading my comments on this forum you might have a different opinion of me ,I dont care! as I said my aim was to try and preserve an exellent ethical style that I feel all this internet beta (google photo search) is slowly crumbling away, think about it?what next an internet site where you can look up the climb and watch a person do the route and get close ups of what size & model gear they placed and which crack it went into? thats what I feel things are coming to what will we call it an "internet beta stream black point flash! I highly value the history and the people who made that history and the style they did it in.to give you an example I once did all the Ewbank routes in the organ pipes in Tasmania witout small nuts hexes or cams, the experience really opened my eyes to the skill and resolve of the pioneers of this sport! think about what you are endorsing, and the efect it will have on budding climbers who will one day look to you for their inspiration and direction!!! ...the bomb
armyiain 31-Dec-2006 1:22:26 PM	Bomber pro, you inadvertently provided the beta by replying about what size cam to use in the roof! Not all of us can simply throw a harness on, sling a couple of draws and a number 2 cam, and confidently climb Kachoong. I swear, as a bumbly, the thing that deters new climbers the most (esp new climbers who are eager to lead etc) is the disparaging remarks from harder climbers. Such as people going out of their way to mention what grade climb they are going to lead this afternoon. I dont care if you are ticking 25! I'm having fun on the 17, leave me be. BTW, I'm not referring specifically to you Bomber Pro. 'Peace out'
Organ Pipe 31-Dec-2006 3:04:45 PM	BP, the part of the quote I referred to as unconstructive was not the "go for it" bit but rather the "Organ Pipe does not know what he's talking about" bit. I don't quite think I deserved that. When you've guided newbies in the past, and they have asked questions of you, have you told them bluntly that they don't know what they're talking about? BTW, I totally respect your view on the trad approach as oposed to googling beta but crikey! all I was doing is killing some time at home thinking about the climb. I have actually been to the base of Kachoong, pulled the first couple of moves on the wall then backed off (something you endorse in your other recent post on beginners climbing). I've spent some time on the other side too, on the scramble around the photographers ledge area looking at the climb. I don't feel like I'm quite ready to tackle the infamous climb though. Anyway that in mind, I still don't think it's fair to have: "Organ Pipe does not know what he is talking about, as the closest he has ever come to doing the route is typing a google search for it." said of me. Anyhoo, hopefully we will meet sometime out on the crag. Cheers!
muki 31-Dec-2006 3:11:07 PM	On 31/12/2006 armyiain wrote: "I swear, as a bumbly" snip "leave me be" snip "Peace out" the only reason I made mention of the gear at all was because every body says clip the piton then back it up. I would not clip that piece of yesteryear trash if you payed me, and the gear is much safer,as I mentioned earlier. "Not all of us can simply throw a harness on, sling a couple of draws and a number 2 cam, and confidently climb Kachoong." But you can AJ! all it takes is a few more years practising good style,and working your way up to that level of experience.I just walked up to it with my rack (no beta, so take the lot) and climbed it,I was at the point that allowed me to do it in good style . also I cannot remember ever having said what climb (or grade) I would be doing any particular afternoon on this site, other than to say that I would be keen to get back to my project after spending so much time, effort, and cash on the Alis chains (that project is now complete) "leave me be" I'm not having a go at you, like you did earlier,"irrational,unreasonable,pridefull,& egotistical" are the judgements you made of me. my disparaging comments were reserved for those omongst you who are slowly eroding the ethic of traditional climbing, ground up ,onsight, some call it style, there are many styles and sometimes the choices made are the most convenient or least scary,but in the long run you are only robbing yourself of the chance to earn the experience needed to do the same climbs in a much better style,a much more rewarding experience awaits you, once you get over the whole gym climbing mentality of top rope beta spew. pre inspected pre worked pre equiped,why not have somebody with more balls pre climb it for you? questionable? to say the least!! without the necesary experience you will pull your "pieces out"....the bomb
uwhp510 31-Dec-2006 10:08:47 PM	Do you really think that how Organ Pipe chooses to climb Kachoong (short of manufacturing holds or sticking in those ghastly ring bolts) makes any difference to you or me or anyone else apart from Organ Pipe? Who gives a sh1t if he wants to top rope the sh1t out of it, have someone else place the gear and then pay someone else to climb it with a helmet cam? Is the eleventy billionth ascent of Kachoong a significant event in Australian climbing? There is a difference between ethics and style. Ethics is what you do to the route, and style is how you climb the route. Climb in whatever style you want. PS Organ Pipe, Kachoong is one of the easiest 21s at the Mount (in my experience) so hook in bro. You'll be right.
brough 31-Dec-2006 10:50:06 PM	On 31/12/2006 uwhp510 wrote: >There is a difference between ethics and style. Ethics is what you do >to the route, and style is how you climb the route. Climb in whatever >style you want. Sorry to go off topic, but I don't think the statement above (quoted) is quite correct. Where did you get that from? Can you provide a reference? Ethics are a set of moral principles or values: eg http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/corpaffr/publications/riscomm/riscomm_appe.shtml There are a set of (poorly defined, not generally agreed upon, heavily argued, but loosely understood) ethics associated with the "style" of ascent as well as the "what you do to the route". The former are associated with whether an ascent can be claimed as a proper free ascent, or, further to that, what exactly can be claimed. A set of moral principles or values (ethics) underpin the characterisation of what specifically has been achieved in ascending a route - be it redpoint, onsight, flash, pinkpoint (a mostly redundant term that is now roughly substituted with "redpoint"), etc For example A qualitative discussion on ethics of free-climbing or what you refer to as "style", and protection and what you "do to the route" http://www.climb.co.nz/RockClimbing/Types/Types-Of-Climbing.htm Ethics of protection http://www.spadout.com/wiki/index.php/Ethic
muki 1-Jan-2007 2:57:34 AM	word brough
BigMike 1-Jan-2007 11:14:01 AM	Ethics and style? I agree with uwhp510... Ethics is what you do to a route, style is how you climb it. No one is going to say it was "unethical" of you to have a rest on a piece of pro, or do research on a climb so that you know what you need at the crux, thereby "downgrading" your onsight to a flash... "Style" is simply the manner in which you climb a route. It would of course be unethical to claim an onsight if you merely flashed or redpointed ... but that's another story. Ethics tends to affect everyone's experience of a cliff (bolting, chipping, using chalk in a no-chalk area). Style is about your own approach to your own climbing. Although it might be considered unethical of me to AID CLIMB KACHOONG on a busy day with loads of punters lining up for it... Something I nevertheless almost feel inclined to do, as I watch people line up on this forum to tell Organ Pipe how he should or should not approach the climb. Hey Pipey, I know someone who recently flashed Kachoong after doing some very solid research on the protection etc needed for the climb. It was an intimidating lead at the top of that climber's ability, and they felt very satisified when they succeeded in their chosen approach. And probably would not have tried the route without the prior knowledge. So all the best in your quest. So long as you have fun, are happy with your efforts, and don't glue a big hold on to the roof, more strength to you!
armyiain 1-Jan-2007 5:41:26 PM	On the note of the fixed pin, I can't specifically comment as I haven't done the route yet. However, as long as clipping it wouldn't cause rope drag, I find it hard to see why someone wouldn't (although I suppose it might take a bit of energy to clip it whilst upside down hehehe) BP, I'll get there one day, unfortunately due to injury my climbing has really stalled. When I get strong again, and build my confidence a bit more, I'll happily get on the sharp end for Kachoong. . >Also I cannot remember ever having said what climb (or grade) I would be doing any >particular afternoon on this site, other than to say that I would be keen to get back to >my project after spending so much time, effort, and cash on the Alis chains (that >project is now complete) Not on this site mate, but my experience has been that when my mates and I (all self-confessed bumblies) talk of our plans to go hit up 13s and 14s (and we mention climbs, not grades), other, harder, climbers can't wait to drop the grade of their last send in an egotistical manner. This attitude isn't helpful I don't think. I doubt this is unique to climbing. But on the other hand, I have met many excellent climbers who crank quite hard, but are willing to spend a bit of time and interest to nurture the bumblies (and indeed without them, I doubt I would have ever gotten into climbing). >I'm not having a go at you, like you did earlier,"irrational,unreasonable,pridefull,& >egotistical" are the judgements you made of me. I actually specified that I wasn't talking to you there, but to other climbers who are cranking way harder than I. With regard to beta, the only beta I want to know about a climb is a) is it safe? b) will I need any special gear (ie no 4 cam or above, lots of small wires, etc) c) its grade d) length and number of pitches so I guess our ethics are quite similiar BP. Cheers.
muki 1-Jan-2007 7:32:07 PM	"On the note of the fixed pin, I find it hard to see why someone wouldn't clip it" If you can ,always! avoid cliping pitons in victoria ,they long ago reached the end of their use by date and regularly fail at the mount.same goes for carot bolts. see if you can get in somthing of your own,they are not the equal of modern fixed protection, and may end up killing you! "so I guess our ethics are quite similiar" actually I quite enjoy going to a new crag I've never been to before (Gotta love the gramps) and looking up at all the lines and just going for the one that inspires me the most,find out the grade and all that other guff later. Thats my favourite style of climbing ,that and adventure climbing on remote peaks with no guide books or recognised lines. I somtimes get spanked, but mostly get a good buzz out of doing it that way. but thats just my preferance, if you or any body wants to do it differently,thats your call ,my remarks were a frustrated outburst, I would love to see the rewards that come from this style of climbing become more popular,and therefore more of an influence on our up and coming leaders,who will in turn be an influence on future generations of Australian climbers. having climbed alot out side of oz I can see a trend towards pre inspection pre equiping and full beta spraydowns,not just on sport routes (it started out that way) but on trad lines as well. this is a bad thing and will degrade the ethic eventually untill you get people saying that its the way forward , and that it will be the way to push out leaders faster, maybe faster is'nt necessarily the best way to produce more climbers,maybe the time involved in doing the ground up hard yards will create strong confident safe climbers who will be able to pass that on to future generations of climbers after them. that was my true intention,to get Organ Pipe and all the other chockstoners to wake up and look at this issue. it seems that a few have done just that if the ethics thread is any indication....the bomb
Organ Pipe 1-Jan-2007 8:09:05 PM	On 1/01/2007 bomber pro wrote: >that was my true intention,to get Organ Pipe and all the other chockstoners >to wake up and look at this >issue. Fair enough : ) I'll subscribe to that. Therefore, you probably would like my overall style (although you said in an earlier post that you don't like my style). This is my style: Wake up at pines campground. Flip through Simon and Glenns guide book and find something that I believe the rest of my group will be able to climb as well as me (at this point in time, I'm the leader). Walk to the base and climb it. I have never performed an abseil inspection. I have never preplaced gear. I much prefer the fun of long all day multi pitches at Araps with good friends, although also really love buzzing about in the Organ Pipes on shorter stuff too. Up until the other day when I started this thread, this was/is a very accurate representation of how I climb. I don't even know why I'm writing this really. Oh well. I'm off to Araps tomorrow morning. See ya!
cruze 1-Jan-2007 9:19:32 PM	I reckon those that don't like being subjected to internet beta spray should not use the 'crag and route beta' forum. Each to their own. Ground up onsight climbing of imposing climbs of unknown grade and level of protection? Kudos. Those that struggle to hump their burgeoning arses up a climb every once in a while (myself included), might like to know a bit about what they are getting themselves into beforehand. I wish I had the experience and fitness that a person such as a, say, guide might have so that I could be confident at my local crag that I could get up (and maybe down if it all gets a bit much) any line bar a handful. Sadly my job doesn't lend itself to promoting those abilities. I am not alone.
muki 1-Jan-2007 11:50:36 PM	I use this section to help others Identify routes that they have been on, but cant find in the guide,eg route left of blue hawai. remember that one cruz ? well there are other things it's usefull for as well, like keeping track of new routes on the mount and elsewhere, sometimes I try and help those with technical info that relates to safety on certain climbs,eg Los Endos,to name but one chop route, not beta spray!mind you just a tip that might save their ass. I dont want to ruin anybodys onsight. I definitely think that reading the god book is a good idea for most people, it helps you find the right way down,and with a good one like simons and glens it will stop you straying onto that "bouldery, difficult to protect, bold, cruxy, nightmare" with the same start. But mostly I'm looking out for any reports on bad gear or snapped pins,loose pitons,bad carots etc,because I fix those if I can. eg new pin on Cadenza,Alis,etc as far as your other comments on confidence at my local crag goes, it's the Wimmera quartsite that gives me confidence,the only other place in the world like it is rocklands in Africa. It lets you get.... bomber pro
foreverabumbly 2-Jan-2007 6:32:12 PM	Thanks, now evertime I look at a climbing photo or poster Im worried about riuning my potential onsight! perhaps i need to stop reading Rock and crux... I also have to admit, I quiz over gear placements and route finding on pictures, not to get any specific beta, but to learn more about gear placements and rope management, which is hard to do from pictures granted but is something to help stop the grind at work. And i dont see it as an ethical or style bad thing.
muki 2-Jan-2007 6:56:11 PM	No worries mate. most of the routes in photo's and posters ie rock,crux will be difficult to top rope eg the water bouldering in crux,no bolts to step on at that wall. Maybe the locals down there might have an ethical problem with you top roping the cliff, as the ethic is no ropes!
foreverabumbly 6-Jan-2007 3:32:42 PM	On 2/01/2007 bomber pro wrote: >No worries mate. >most of the routes in photo's and posters ie rock,crux will be difficult >to top rope eg the water bouldering >in crux,no bolts to step on at that wall. Maybe the locals down there >might have an ethical problem with >you top roping the cliff, as the ethic is no ropes! ahh, but I can always dream...
tiny toe 6-Jan-2007 8:29:05 PM	I made onsight on this route today was rainy so climbing in the overhangs was good. also celular destruction and lats have feeling too all were realy great climbing. still wanting some partner for climbing ,my partner for today is torn some muscle in the back. maybe we can go to the grampians I think that there is good climbing from the books I see.

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