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Crag & Route Beta

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Climbing banned Centennial Trev Blue Mtns - NPWS


E. Wells

4-May-2015
7:35:01 PM

How could they. Seriously, Im genuinely curious how they could possibly officially approve any bolting in the litigious society we live in. No climber could equip a route. It would involve all the overpriced 'expertise' that has already been mentioned, which infuriates me just as much as arborists justifying they're lowlife 10/50 jobs with similar payrates. Lets consider whats at stake here. The developers are devastated as you would expect but who really wants NPWS to administer a park wide ban. I like the crag too , its peaceful (except for the days that beta spraying wanker took his dog , then told his daughter that those complaining were just 'negative' urrrrgh)

Rawpowa!

4-May-2015
7:52:22 PM

On 4/05/2015 E. Wells wrote:
>How could they. Seriously, Im genuinely curious how they could possibly
>officially approve any bolting in the litigious society we live in. No
>climber could equip a route. It would involve all the overpriced 'expertise'
>that has already been mentioned, which infuriates me just as much as arborists
>justifying they're lowlife 10/50 jobs with similar payrates. Lets consider
>whats at stake here. The developers are devastated as you would expect
>but who really wants NPWS to administer a park wide ban. I like the crag
>too , its peaceful (except for the days that beta spraying wanker took
>his dog , then told his daughter that those complaining were just 'negative'
>urrrrgh)

Look I agree that there is no point antagonising NPWS over this, and personally I can see where they are coming from with this situation. But given that (presumably) they won't approve any bolting even in a place that isn't going to attract other park uses, I can see why someone bolting wouldn't inform them if their automatic response is going to be 'No'.


E. Wells

4-May-2015
8:25:29 PM

Yes. Thats how it is at the moment.

Jayford4321

4-May-2015
9:00:25 PM

On 30/04/2015 Jdodds wrote:
>On 30/04/2015 dalai wrote:
>>
>>Why? Not every cliff needs to be climbed or bolted...
>
>I agree with you there Dalai, but if you Actually knew the area you wouldn't
>be writing this, I have come across at least 20 or more of this style of
>Arches whilst exploring the canyon lands that extend more than 100km north
>of this area, that are naturally protected by the means there is no road
>access and require multiple day walk ins, none of these areas will ever
>be developed due to access and lazy sport climbers. This area in particular
>is less than 100m inside the park boundary, and 150m from the end of a
>fire road. It was the only one suitable for development.

Which bit of the original post did u not understand?

Here it is again if u need a refresher as u seem to have completely ignored his entire post.

On 28/04/2015 whippet wrote:
>"The National Parks and Wildlife Service has advised that climbing is not
>permitted at "Centennial Trev" due to the high impact on the rare and significant
>sandstone arch (Dargan Arch) and adjacent cliffs (including Creekside).
>
>These areas and access tracks are all within Blue Mountains National Park.
>They have been developed without consultation and approval from NPWS, and
>bolts will be removed.
>The cooperation of climbers in protecting thgis significant area is appreciated,
>
>For further information contact Blackheath NPWS on 47878877 or neil.stone@environment.nsw
>gov.au "
>This is the crag affected - http://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/blue-mountains/bell-line-of-road/area/283521849

One Day Hero

4-May-2015
10:31:59 PM

On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>It's so disappointing to see climbers who are for the chopping of bolts.
>
Why? How f---ing out of touch are you? I assume that you're one of these sydney gym ______ who has only ever climbed bolted routes to loweroffs. Some of australia's best climbers chop bolts. Even though I'm not particularly good at climbing, I've chopped bolts. It was fun, I'll do it again.

>The arch was not my work but the hard work of someone else who put a lot
>of time and money into the area to provide new routes for everyone to enjoy.

There are more than enough fuching easy sport routes on mediocre rock in the Blue Mountains. Nobody needs any more of this shit, especially if you damage relations with the land managers in the process. If you find actual mega lines on good rock in a discreet setting, go for your life. Centenial Trev is none of the above!.

-

*Personal abuse removed by moderator.*


Snacks

4-May-2015
11:48:29 PM

On 4/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 4/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>>
>>Any official shortcuts should be investigated by WorkCover in my opinion
>>as I don't believe amateur bolters should be encouraged to carry out
>this
>>'work' and the risks go far beyond those accepted by typical Track or
>Bush
>>care volunteers. It might be a good time for NPWS to begin setting up
>a
>>framework to handle these issues sensibly and within safe work practices.
>>
>What the fuch are you on about? Trying to drum up some work? After your
>efforts in the gorge last year, I wouldn't think you'd have the front to
>start crapping on and insinuating that you're any kind of "professional"
>

Er ... don't think my company will be looking to take on a low budget high risk mess for the sake of the aesthetic appeal of a sandstone arch amongst other bad business reasons... swing and a miss buddy.

Though a couple of window cleaners with their own insurances might be more keen for grinding some bolts off... who can say?

I don't mind volunteering as a climber to help the local NPWS staff with some of the preliminary headaches though.

Over to you maestro.

One Day Hero

5-May-2015
12:05:03 AM

Haha, I took that down cause it came out more narky than intended. You don't grind rings out of sandstone, quicker and cleaner to drill and plug. Parks won't have to pay anyone to remove the bolts (nor to do some bullshit assessment) because local climbers will go out and do it quietly and for free.......unless the developers get off their arses first and do the honorable thing.

You can't possibly be defending this shit.


Macciza

5-May-2015
12:35:48 AM

I must admit I find the 'shortcuts should be investigated by WorkCover' bit a bit bizarre .... What about the original 'works at height' done installing them, should that be investigated? That whole approach could cause some serious problems down the line- like where do you stop? Most rings being put in are in no way certified as fit for use, or tested and tagged, let alone put in by qualified HA workers. And if 'amateur' bolters should not do the clean up work, maybe they shouldn't be putting them in either!
And scaffolding?? Seems like a bit of overkill to me, is that what you would use to install bolts there?
I'm not aware of any issue of structural issue with the arch but will check that one out tmw.

And I would suggest that those of you who have not ever looked at the POM should do so, as it may answer a lot of your questions and dispel some of the arguments raised ....


Snacks

5-May-2015
12:48:25 AM

I've noticed your online presence is a bit narky so didn't take it personally... Where does that Harry Potter-esque polite boy go behind the keyboard? Ha ha...

Defending these particular bolts staying you mean?

One Day Hero

5-May-2015
12:57:10 AM

On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>Defending these particular bolts staying you mean?

Yep. My understanding is that local climbers/developers who deal with Parks asked the guys not to bolt Centenial Trev as it wouldn't go down well. The dudes bolted anyway, Parks saw bolts, Parks banned climbing and asked for bolts to be removed. Dudes are now trying to wriggle.

If I have misunderstood the situation, I'm happy to be corrected.

Samcross

5-May-2015
6:42:11 AM

On 4/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>>It's so disappointing to see climbers who are for the chopping of bolts.
>>
>Why? How f---ing out of touch are you? I assume that you're one of these
>sydney gym _____ who has only ever climbed bolted routes to loweroffs.
>Some of australia's best climbers chop bolts. Even though I'm not particularly
>good at climbing, I've chopped bolts. It was fun, I'll do it again.
>
>>The arch was not my work but the hard work of someone else who put a
>lot
>>of time and money into the area to provide new routes for everyone to
>enjoy.
>
>There are more than enough fuching easy sport routes on mediocre rock
>in the Blue Mountains. Nobody needs any more of this shit, especially if
>you damage relations with the land managers in the process. If you find
>actual mega lines on good rock in a discreet setting, go for your life.
>Centenial Trev is none of the above!.

These comments by one day hero are far too homophobic and aggressive for a public forum, I personally am highly offended. Surely this kind of behaviour can not be tolerated. Very childish of you one day hero.There must be some anger issues and underlying problems. Calm down buddy and maybe think before you post next time. Truly not a Hero. Hopefully admin can do something about this guy.
>

Samcross

5-May-2015
6:48:30 AM

My kids read this stuff, how dare you One day hero!


E. Wells

5-May-2015
7:56:11 AM

My understanding of the situation is very different to yours odh. It is a little more complex and involves less climbers and prior consultation than you may think. This is a crag that people have been climbing at for three years. It is the realisation of the area recently , not by parks, but by others that have spurned this action. This is not a standpoint on 'to chop or not to chop' as my opinion would be bias. Your understanding seems to be based on what is read here rather than truth.

Chockstone Moderator

5-May-2015
8:16:17 AM

On 5/05/2015 Samcross wrote:
>These comments by one day hero are far too homophobic and aggressive for
>a public forum, I personally am highly offended. Surely this kind of behaviour
>can not be tolerated. Very childish of you one day hero.There must be
>some anger issues and underlying problems. Calm down buddy and maybe think
>before you post next time. Truly not a Hero. Hopefully admin can do something
>about this guy.

ODH has been warned and the personal abuse has been removed.

A reminder to all users, as per Chockstone policy, that "posts containing extremely offensive language, blatant racism, sexual harassment, or out right personal attacks on other forum members are unacceptable. On the other hand, light hearted banter, general cursing & expletives, and heated, confrontational debate is fine".


Snacks

5-May-2015
10:28:47 AM

On 5/05/2015 Macciza wrote:
>I must admit I find the 'shortcuts should be investigated by WorkCover'
>bit a bit bizarre .... What about the original 'works at height' done installing
>them, should that be investigated? That whole approach could cause some
>serious problems down the line- like where do you stop? Most rings being
>put in are in no way certified as fit for use, or tested and tagged, let
>alone put in by qualified HA workers. And if 'amateur' bolters should not
>do the clean up work, maybe they shouldn't be putting them in either!
>And scaffolding?? Seems like a bit of overkill to me, is that what you
>would use to install bolts there?
>I'm not aware of any issue of structural issue with the arch but will
>check that one out tmw.
>
>And I would suggest that those of you who have not ever looked at the
>POM should do so, as it may answer a lot of your questions and dispel some
>of the arguments raised ....

'Amateur' bolters just simply refers to people not covered by their own insurances. It's not a question of skill, but of liability which I may not have stressed enough for you to be so confuddled...

NPWS staff can highlight areas that are banned but getting people to remove bolts is very different. If this was to be an ongoing issue (which it is) where other areas get looked at down the track then these issues become a lot more relevant.

You only have to talk to Mikl to hear how often one of the most experienced bolters seems to almost kill himself on a regular basis... Would his family be able to claim under NPWS insurances if he volunteered officially to remove them or would they be forced to sue for compensation or just accept fate so to speak? Would the organisation have even know they were at risk because a staff member, representing the organisation, requested or suggested something outside their insurance policy? ... (Rhetorical questions)

Scaffolding? ... It's a low arch. The costs would be similar for removing the bolts with the added benefits of a safe, stable work platform that the workers can more thoroughly and cleanly remove bolts and repair any damage... All things NPWS would (or should) be interested in. Working above your shoulders for extended periods of time is hard work.

One of the reasons bolting gets officially blanket 'banned' is that it removes most, if not all, liability for the land owner. Seems a bit odd to condone or encourage something just as dangerous? ...

Use scaffold to install bolts there? Not relevant... but if it was considered stable you (a company with workers that would most likely be climbers on the side) could *possibly* get away with lead bolting it as per IRATA guidelines if it was approved and requested by NPWS.

Generally speaking, "amateur" de-bolters and bolters are free to take on their own legal/safety risks in their own time as they always do without affecting anyone else.


Snacks

5-May-2015
10:56:51 AM

On 5/05/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 5/05/2015 Snacks wrote:
>>Defending these particular bolts staying you mean?
>
>Yep. My understanding is that local climbers/developers who deal with
>Parks asked the guys not to bolt Centenial Trev as it wouldn't go down
>well. The dudes bolted anyway, Parks saw bolts, Parks banned climbing and
>asked for bolts to be removed. Dudes are now trying to wriggle.
>
>If I have misunderstood the situation, I'm happy to be corrected.

There's so many classics for me to try before putting up my own...

Taking away the nitty gritty complications of how to remove bolts etc. there's not much difference between the reasons for someone putting up climbs in a location like the Blue Mountains or Point Perpendicular and the reasons for removing them.

Everyone is right in their own mind.

If "experienced" climbers feel strongly enough about particular bolts or climbs that need removal, arguably they have the same right to remove them with the same lack of consultation (at least equal to that to place them) provided they don't make a dangerous situation out of it (leaving partially chopped eyelets because of a flat battery for example).

Stuartt

5-May-2015
11:29:11 AM

I have climbed a few boulders. They don t have lower offs ;).
And a couple of those thing in Europe where snow falls.
Mountains that's what the're called.
I still think it's sad that people chop bolts regardless of what grade they climb.
How would you feel if you showed up to climb a route and the bolts had been chopped.
I would say a little sad and angry for that matter as I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way a little ODH.

I have the upmost respects for parks. And I have no intention of climbing in the area.


Macciza

5-May-2015
11:59:47 AM

Stuart..
Not sure boulders really count ...;~)
How would you feel rocking up to a mountain you've been to before only to find it has been bolted to the lowest common standard?
Sometimes it can be extremely good for bolts to be chopped, they may be badly placed, unnecessary etc
How would you feel if your known about trad project got bolted because others were unable to climb it without bolts? Believe me, you would feel a little angry; and I would be absolutely elated to go back and find the rings had been removed

So have you climbed there or not? Why do you now have no intention of climbing there .


Snacks

5-May-2015
12:11:34 PM

On 5/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>How would you feel if you showed up to climb a route and the bolts had
>been chopped.

The obvious reply here is if you came across a line that could be climbed on placed gear and it was ladder bolted instead you may feel similarly angry/sad...

Bolting is governed by graffiti style ethics... first to tag wins!

Stuartt

5-May-2015
12:14:15 PM

I visited the area many times. I will not return because it has been banned.
Some people would feel the same about people who bolt routes that are not possible for them to climb.
Leaving undone projects littering a beautiful roof with bolts. (Should they be chopped?) I don't think so
Others could think that same person is a legend and left gifts for the future gerneration to climb.
Peoples point of view will always differ.
Retro bolting a trad route is not cool and deserves to be chopped but that's a completely different topic.

There are 186 messages in this topic.